Talk:Poland–Lithuania

Latest comment: 10 years ago by Xoloz in topic Requested Move 2

Requested move

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Adjectival forms still needed to be properly/logically addressed

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Halleljuh! - but praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, the adjectival forms were not similarly addressed, which is an incomplete decision to me and now must face RMs. It's fairly common sense to ordinary users of the language, if not to typographical cultists, that adjectival forms of hyphenated proper names should also be hyphenated. Arguments that they should not be are entirely unsubstantiated and not supported by abtruse syntactical deconstructions whose only purpose it to support the imposition of dashes where they do not belong.Skookum1 (talk) 17:16, 2 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

There was a good mix of opinions on Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. If you treat Polish–Lithuanian there as an adjective, you'll probably lose, since that's where an en dash would be called for. If you treat the whole thing as an official hyphenated name, and can make that case with evidence, than maybe it should be moved back to the hyphen. Dicklyon (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
There's a difference between an adjective meaning "Polish and/or Lithuanian" and an adjective derived from a proper name, which obviously "Poland-Lithuania" explicity and very much so is (despite attempts to deconstruct it otherwise). I'll compile a list of published (and typeset) sources which use the proper hyphenated form, and the linguistic logic of proper names being declined into adjectival forms with th same punctuation is so painfully obvious it's a wonder to me that anyone could resist it. MOS needs amendment for cases like this; citing MOS and saying "you'll probably lose" is a non sequitur since MOS is not immutable, and it's also very clearly not perfect, it it's capable of making gaffes like this one. And it is a gaffe (as was my typing "archival" instead of "adjectival", though that was a brain-fart, not blind adherence to a very questionable style guideline that has nothing to do with sources, and only with shallow understand of the subject-words affected. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is a hyphenated name, no matter how many people want to insist its some kind of adjectival compound; "Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania" would be hyphenated; saying that another construction of the same name should be punctuated/spelled differently is nonsense and an ad hominem over-application of a set of too-narrow rules.Skookum1 (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I'll only "probably lose" because that's only if MOS is treated as if it were the Word of God, which obviously it's not. Anyone arguing that the adjectival forms of properly hyphenated names should not be hyphenated with definitely lose if logic were at play here, instead of nit-pickery and ad hominem heel-digging to impose a wiki-ism rooted in a MOS that wasn't written with cases like this in mind; if thine eye offend thee strike it out; reality should not suffer because Wikipedians are not capable of flexibility with their "rules" and incapable of seeing the basic logic here - hyphenated names are hyphenated, and so therefore should adjective that are based on them.Skookum1 (talk) 01:42, 12 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
I don't think anyone would argue that, nor agree with you that we're talking about "adjectival forms of properly hyphenated names"; I'd say that either Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is itself a proper name, or Polish–Lithuanian is a two-name adjective applied to Commonwealth, and therefore should have an en dash. There may be other positions, but no need for you to advance one that you think is wrong. Dicklyon (talk) 02:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)Reply
The answer to that is painfully obvious: both Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Polish-Lithuanian union refer to two different phases/constitutionalities of the same country, Poland-Lithuania. And per MOSFOLLOW, the one cite on that page uses the hyphen (and it's a typset, not HTML); the presupposition, often heard hereabouts, is that web-copy is flawed because it's HTML, just doesn't wash and is very much original research, based in "I think". I'll assemble a bunch of print sources -easy to find - using the hyphen as is the norm for these names, always - the Wiki-claim that they're faulty is only that - a claim. Follow the sources....Skookum1 (talk) 02:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

Requested Move 2

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There appears to be a consensus that the issue of "dash vs. hyphen" is sufficiently trivial such that RMs on the question are not encouraged. In any case, the status quo suffices. Xoloz (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2014 (UTC)Reply



Poland-LithuaniaPoland–Lithuania – First, because WP:DASH seems to suggest this is the correct usage. But more importantly for consistency, all three articles on this dab page use the dash rather than the hyphen and I can't see a good reason why this page should differ from them. 101.176.89.125 (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

  • Strong oppose WP:DEADHORSE. Read the previous RM above.....WP:DASH maybe has been re-amended since, with the "war on the hyphen" reinstated, but common usage and normal English means use the hyphen, not the dash. The other still-dashed items are the ones that should be re-hyphenated. I can see a good reason why this page shouldn't differ from the others, but I strongly feel/know that the NORMAL usage for these names is with the hyphen, not the DASH. That the last RM excepted some of the dash->hyphen changes that remain is not a reason to say that this one should conform to them. Rather the opposite. Consistency with the real world should be more important than the many inconsistencies of MOS and those who advanced it to try to transform English to suit their own orthographical tastes.Skookum1 (talk) 04:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
    • I would be able to understand this argument if it was an actual article we were talking about, then sure I can see the idea of encyclopedic accuracy being more important than consistency between similar articles. But this isn't an article, it's a dab page, simply a listing of other Wikipedia articles -- all of which use the dash. I'm not sure where "normal usage" comes into it, an index of Wikipedia articles and should reflect Wikipedia practice. 101.176.89.125 (talk) 13:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
      • The above RMs are about all usages of "Poland-Lithuania". The imposition of DASH on those titles still having them remains controversial, as does moving hyphenated titles to the DASH; certain "rules" apply (in Wikipedia, per the Fifth Pillar, "there are no rules", however) were used to apply, then preserve the DASH, even though it is not used in common English; the issue of whether there were more cites that used it vs not using it is a typographical-theory dispute, very arcane and not part of English-as-she-is-spoke-and-written in the real world. The result of the imposition of the DASH is a Wiki-affectation and, obviously as you note, not easy to understand.Skookum1 (talk) 17:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
        • Note this comment from EnricNaval above in reply to Mclay1:
          • "It doesn't matter. The dash is in the place of "and". Polish-Lithuanian (hyphen) Union would be a union within the Polish-Lithuanian people, not a union between two peoples. After they united they were one people but that's irrelevant. McLerristarr | Mclay1 12:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
          • I would be open to this argument if I hadn't looked at high quality sources, and found out that all of the use hyphen. Either all those sources are interpreting the name wrong, or you are interpreting it wrong. I'll bet for the sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:27, 25 January 2011 (UTC)"
        • Note especially "high quality sources, and found out that all of the[m] use hyphen." Could anything be more clear? To some, no, which is why a "compromise" was reached for adjectival constructions and non-"and" uses of two joined nouns; Poland-Lithuania was one country, like Austria-Hungary, and others where the imposition of DASH was overridden by sources, i.e. reality, not wiki-extrareality.Skookum1 (talk) 17:09, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • If the two were one country (which I guess they were?) then I must oppose Red Slash 20:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
    • if you have to guess, it means you haven't read up on the country and its history, which is referred to historically as one country; same situation applies to Austria-Hungary and similar country-names.Skookum1 (talk) 05:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
      • I did look. It's complicated. Red Slash 03:15, 24 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
        • Indeed it is, but that's not an excuse for typographical preferences of certain Wikipedians to prevail over sources and long-standing normal usage of the hyphen. Austria-Hungary was also complicated (actually several kingdoms and two imperial thrones, plus more). The last RM proposed by EnricNaval contains all kinds of illogics in defiance of sources; but all items that had the DASH affirmed/compromised by its closer should be revisited, and this one should be left as it is as MOSTCOMMON in English, and indeed in a score of other languages as well. I'm tired of seeing a certain type of Wikipedian hold forth on niggling over typography in various ways; Wikipedia should reflect reality, not distort it in the image of its editors' vanities and preferences; the history of Poland-Lithuania is indeed very complicated, which is why simplistic/OR "analysis of grammar" should not have anything to do with its title; which should follow in all cases what the sources have used for hundreds of years, and continue toSkookum1 (talk) 06:18, 24 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • WP:LAME#Mexican-American War vs Mexican–American War. walk victor falk talk 12:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • Fwiw, oppose, because I am a philistine that uses neither the hyphen nor the dash, but the "minus sign". I use the extra-long one only when it's necessary to make it extra-clear it's e.g. a time period like 1939-1945. walk victor falk talk 12:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • (I am the guy who opened the last RM, I am only commenting) The union of these two countries has evolved over a long period of time, and they were more separated or more united depending on political and historical circumstances. In the last RM, I saw that most reliable sources used a hyphen. Arguably, they use a hyphen because they consider it more of a single country. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
    • Which it appears there are Wikipedians who do not; but is it the sources that should define how this is titled, or grammar analyses (really all very OR per historiography and reliable sources) that should prevail? The compromise of the previous RM was not satisfactory for that reason; it preserved this hyphen but inflicted the dash on other titles based on said grammatical OR-cum-analyses. Wikipedia has too strong an influence on English beyond itself for this matter to be shrugged off or equivocated away; given sources, and widespread long-standing use in all cases e.g. Polish-Lithuanian Commmonwealth, now, I believe, with a DASH, this RM should not be about changing the Poland-Lithuania hyphen to a dash, but reverting the imposed-by-grammar-OR dashes in the related titles to hyphens. In the-then parallel hyphen-dash RMs found at Talk:Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District#Requested move, determined resistance to the original title's hyphen was finally silenced, albeit with a prejudicial "not what I prefer" comment from the closer, who begrudgingly had to acknowledge legislation/regulation and formal style guides of the British Columbia government. i.e. to finally acknowledge the obvious and concede that the DASH should not be used on those titles. Similar situation applies here; it's Wikipedians, not sources, who hold forth about the DASH....and that kind of folly and presumption should end.Skookum1 (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose - Does it matter whether a Dash or Hypen's used ? ... It reads no different and in general looks no different so IMHO it's pointless moving over a "dash" issue. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 11:16, 26 May 2014 (UTC)Reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.