Wikipedia:Move review
Formal review processes |
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For RfCs, community discussions, and to review closes of other reviews: |
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Discussion about closes prior to closing: |
Move review is a process to formally discuss and evaluate a contested close of Wikipedia page move discussions, including requested moves (RM), categories for discussion discussions (CfD), and redirects for discussion discussions (RfD), to determine if the close was reasonable, or whether it was inconsistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines.
Prior to submitting a review of a page move's close, please attempt to resolve any issues on the closer's talk page. See step one below.
While the page move close is under review, any involved editor is free to revert any undiscussed moves of a nominated page without those actions being considered a violation of Wikipedia:No wheel warring.
What this process is not
editThis review process should be focused on the move discussion and the subsequent results of the move discussion, not on the person who closed the discussion. If you have ongoing concerns about a closer, please consult with the closer or post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Move review requests which cast aspersions or otherwise attack other editors may be speedily closed.
Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page.
Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.
Disagreements with Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions (WP:RMCI), WP:Article titles, the Manual of Style, a naming convention or the community norm of consensus should be raised at the appropriate corresponding talk page.
CfDs[1] and RfDs can only be reviewed here if the relevant discussion was limited in scope to renaming; CfDs or RfDs[2] involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Instructions
editInitiating move reviews
editEditors desiring to initiate a move review should follow the steps listed below. In the reason parameter, editors should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:
- [Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because [explain rationale here] in closing this requested move discussion.
- [Closer] was unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the page move discussion: [identify information here] and the discussion should be reopened and relisted.
Editors initiating a move review discussion should be familiar with the closing instructions provided in WP:RMCI.
Steps to list a new review request
edit1. |
Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond. |
2. |
Follow this link to this month's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the contested move page, rm_page with the name of the move discussion page if needed, rm_section if needed, closer and closer_section with the post-move discussion information, and reason with the reason why the page move should be reviewed. For example: Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:move review list |page= |rm_page= <!--Not needed if the move discussion is on the talk page of the page--> |rm_section= <!--Name of the section with the move request--> |closer= <!--User name of editor who closed the move request--> |closer_section= <!--Name of the section of closer's talk page where discussion took place--> |reason= }} ~~~~ If either the
are correctly filled in, the result will include a "Discussion with closer" link to that discussion. If the |
3. |
If you have not done so already, inform the closer of the Move review discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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4. |
Leave notice of the move review in the same section as, but outside of and above the closed original move discussion. Use the following template: |
5. |
If the current month discussions are not already included in the discussion section below. Add the new log page to the top of the active discussions section.
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6. |
The discussion with closer and notices required above are sufficient notification; you are not required to individually notify participants in the prior move discussion of the move review. However, if you individually notify any of them, you must individually notify all of them by posting a message about the move review on each participant's respective user talk page. |
Commenting in a move review
editIn general, commenters should prefix their comments with either Endorse or Overturn (optionally stating an alternative close) followed by their reasoning. Generally, the rationale should be an analysis of whether the closer properly followed Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, whether it was within closer's discretion and reasonably interpreted consensus in the discussion, while keeping in mind the spirit of Wikipedia policy, precedent and project goal. Commenters should be familiar with WP:RMCI, which sets forth community norms for closers of page move discussions.
If the close is considered premature because of on-going discussion or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion, commenters should suggest Relist followed by their rationale.
Commenters should identify whether or not they were involved or uninvolved in the RM discussion under review.
The closer of the page move under discussion should feel free to provide additional rationale as to why they closed the RM in the manner they did and why they believe the close followed the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI.
Remember that move review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process (in the absence of significant new information). Thus, the action specified should be the editor's analysis of whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines. Providing evidence such as page views, ghits, ngrams, challenging sourcing and naming conventions, etc. to defend a specific title choice is not within the purview of a move review. Evidence should be limited to demonstrating that the RM closer did or did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing the page move discussion.
Closing reviews
editA nominated page should remain on move review for at least seven days. After seven days, an uninvolved editor will determine whether a consensus exists to either endorse the close or overturn the close. If that consensus is to Overturn Close, the MRV closer should take the appropriate actions to revert any title changes resulting from the RM close. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, or Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If the consensus is to Endorse Close, no further action is required on the article title. If the MRV closer finds that there is no consensus in the move review, then in most cases this has the same effect as Endorse Close and no action is required on the article title. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; MRV closers may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
Use {{subst:move review top}} and {{subst:move review bottom}} to close such discussions.
Also, add a result to the {{move review talk}}
template on the talk page where the original discussion took place, e.g. {{move review talk|date=April 24 2015|result=Closure endorsed}}
.
Typical move review decision options
editThe following set of options represent the typical results of a move review decision, although complex page move discussions involving multiple title changes may require a combination of these options based on the specific details of the RM and MRV discussions.
MRV closer's decision | RM closer's decision | Move review closed as | Status of RM after MRV close |
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1. Endorse | Moved / Not moved | No action required | Closed |
2. Overturn | Not moved | Option 1: (If RM consensus is unclear or significantly divided) Reopen and relist RM | Open |
Option 2: (If consensus to move to a new title is clear) Move title to new title and close RM | Closed | ||
Moved | Move title back to pre-RM title, and reopen and relist RM if appropriate | Open | |
3. Relist | Moved / Not moved | Reopen and relist RM and if moved, move title back to pre-RM title | Open |
Notes
edit- ^ Those that involve renames (Template:Cfr), for all other types of CFDs use deletion review.
- ^ Generally for those that don't involve any proposed or suggested deletion, where only the redirect's target was being discussed or if the redirect should be a disambiguation page, for other (even those that were retargeted where deletion was proposed or considered) use deletion review.
Active discussions
editIn the discussion it was shown that "PhD" is more common than the full "Doctor of Philosophy", which is very rarely used. "PhD" was shown to be more than 60 times more common in google ngrams and more than twice as common in google scholar, with the caveat that most of the results for the full name were actual PhD dissertations, so the actual results are probably higher in favour of the abbreviation. WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:ACROTITLE were the main arguments supporting the move. The opposing arguments were quite weak and easily refuted:
- Appeals to WP:ACRONYMTITLE, which simply delegates to COMMONNAME and actually supports the move.
- Appeals to WP:CONSISTENT, which ignore all other WP:CRITERIA and the article PhD-MBA.
- Non-reasoned opposes based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
- Claiming that getting fewer results for the full name is proof that it meets the COMMONNAME because of some mysterious logic.
Discounting the arguments that ignore policies and guidelines results in a clear consensus to move the article . Vpab15 (talk) 16:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment unconceivable that anyone can look at that discussion and conclude there is a consensus to move. Note one of the support !votes comes from an WP:SPA. I stand by my close as an accurate summary of the prevailing opinion Consensus to keep the full name for consistency with similar articles and that PhD is not a universal abbreviation of the term. Polyamorph (talk) 16:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by universal? I am not claiming the abbreviation is used 100% of the time, but neither is the full name, which is used even less. There is no policy that says an abbreviation can only be used in the title if it is used 100% of the time. Vpab15 (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- It's not my opinion, it is a summary of the consensus. You bludgeoned the WP:RM and appear intent on doing the same here. Polyamorph (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean by universal? I am not claiming the abbreviation is used 100% of the time, but neither is the full name, which is used even less. There is no policy that says an abbreviation can only be used in the title if it is used 100% of the time. Vpab15 (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse There is an absolute consensus in that discussion to not move the page, and those opposing were cited in policy. Please don't bludgeon my !vote here, either. This one is very simple. SportingFlyer T·C 16:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Clear consensus to not move. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Terrible nomination. Once you say
... 18k results since 2010 ..., compared to less than 17k for "Ph.D." ... and less than 8k for "Doctor of Philosophy"
. You can't cite WP:COMMONNAME anymore. Weak argument, strong opposition, burden to move not met.—Alalch E. 22:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
I participated in this move request which was regarding a musician's name change some 30 years ago, essentially attempting to get Wikipedia to align with all reliable independent sources. Although a consensus was reached and the RM closed on that basis, the discussion did not touch upon the WP:CHANGEDNAME guidelines at all which are highly pertinent in this case, so it is my view that the RM was closed prematurely and an incorrect conclusion reached.
A further attempt to engage in discussion focusing purely on Wikipedia article naming guidelines was shut down. It is proving very challenging to improve the quality of Wikipedia in good faith when faced with editors who refuse to thoroughly discuss the topic at hand in relation to Wikipedia guidance around name changes, or worse still decide to impose their own standards which do not necessarily align to Wikipedia's guidance. There are several examples of untruths peppered through the brief discussion, the editors involved are a little under-informed both on the Wikipedia guidance on this topic and also the fact that all reliable independent sources available refer routinely to the artist under his newer name.
As I pointed out in a subsequent RM a few weeks later, according to WP:CHANGEDNAME we must give extra weight to reliable sources which routinely use the subjects newer name (post name-change). It is my observation that ALL reliable sources available adhere to that requirement, and I have provided many examples of this. Therefore, Wikipedia editors have unfortunately failed to reach a correct conclusion in this instance and it merits further discussion specifically around naming guidelines such as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CHANGEDNAME.
Of course, despite best efforts sometimes rapid consensus and groupthink can at times produce erroneous results which are not well-aligned with Wikipedia guidelines; the question is how we should repond to such failures to adhere to our own standards. It seems a great shame to shut down further discussion on this, I would propose a rethink. The page should be renamed, it is anachronistic in the extreme that we have refused to engage properly with this issue. MzK11 (talk) 09:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure what to recommend here, to be honest. The initial move rationale did not refer to any of our policies, everyone opposing missed WP:CHANGEDNAME in favour of WP:COMMONNAME which is an easy mistake to make, and the person supporting sort of got it right. It does appear WP:CHANGEDNAME is the correct policy here, but there was little to no discussion of that in the move request. My own searches show that the new name is predominant in media, with only a couple instances where the old name predominates, for instance a caption of a photo from the 1980s. Most sources reference the old name, some do not at all. But that is not really a discussion for a move review - it's a discussion for another move request. SportingFlyer T·C 16:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I believe you meant WP:NAMECHANGES, which is part of the policy on article titles. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 17:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that is correct. Apologies. SportingFlyer T·C 21:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- I believe you meant WP:NAMECHANGES, which is part of the policy on article titles. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 17:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse, apply moratorium of two months. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Terence+Trent+D%27Arby%2CSananda+Maitreya&year_start=1975&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=0 Shows data 1980-2010 support a trend towards the new name, so the proposal is not absurd. The discussions are both clumsy, by Wikipedia norms. MzK11 (talk · contribs) is a new WP:SPA. I suspect broad aversion based on this. I advise MzK11 to disclose any connection they have to the subject.
I suspect a title change may be successfully made, but there is no great urgency. To MzK11, I also advise, it is not good enough to be right, you need to persuade others. You failed the first time. Take more time to craft a better nomination next time. See related advice at WP:RENOM. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC)- Thank you - I accept that I failed to persuade others on my first attempt, didn't expect it to be closed down so soon and I didn't expect my second (better-prepared) attempt to be closed down without any discussion. As you point out I am new and lacked familiarity with the processes. I have zero connection to the subject, just a music fan who wanted to improve the quality of these pages (particularly errors on discography page etc) in a variety of ways but was immediately struck by the title of the page being somewhat anachronistic / out of sync compared to all other major sources. MzK11 (talk) 12:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
The recent request move was to change the article title from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, not to 7 October attacks. The article has been unilaterally moved to a different title all together. There has been other notable attacks on the date 7 October in the region such as the 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which occurred on the 7 October. That's why I supported a move to the title 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel as it was specific about which attack on the 7 October, and to differentiate it from other attacks in the region on the same date. This controversial move lacked consensus in the RM discussion. Another user (User:Makeandtoss) has also stated "I agree, this should be taken to move review, as in addition to lacking widespread consensus, this was closed by a non-admin, in contravention of WP:BADNAC. Most worryingly, the closer is involved in the topic area [1].... The close very clearly violates 3 out of 4 points outlined in WP:BADNAC: 1- involved editor 2- controversial move 3- little WP experience at 6,000 edits.". The mover stated "there was clear consensus to move away from the current title as the date was found to be an important part of the WP:COMMONNAME" but they have not proved that this shorter title is the common name in contrast with the more prevalently used longer version of the title. IJA (talk) 15:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relist In all honesty, I don't think that was a bad close, and I might have made a similar close. However, if I had closed the same way, my close would have been based on the assumption that IJA's vote supported the shorter title, which is now clearly not the case. Given that there's not a crystal clear support to move, the move title isn't agreed upon, and relisting the discussion is likely to lead to a better consensus, I think a discretionary relist would be proper here. SportingFlyer T·C 18:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. @IJA: Can you explain why you believe the closer was involved here? I don't think a single edit six+ months ago is enough, and your points about BADNAC are irrelevant as WP:RMNAC is much more open to non admin closes. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- RMNAC clearly leaves this for experienced editors. I wouldn't call having 6,000 edits experienced, certainly not in this topic area. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relist (involved) I didn't want a date at all and !voted that way but now that we are where we are, I think it cannot be right that a title which described what the article was about has now been changed to a date, without even a year, which nobody (apart from Israelis) will recognize a year from now. At the very least the move should have been to that requested and I think that needs to be properly debated.Selfstudier (talk) 16:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relist (uninvolved in the discussion) As mentioned earlier, the close goes against BADNAC in three ways. Also, there was not a strong enough consensus for this controversial change. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:03, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Relist (uninvolved) The page wasn't moved to the target listed in the RM. It's not listed under BADNAC, as should be obvious that when closing an RM, it should be moved to the correct target when there is consensus. Support for the move was therefore for the target, not necessarily a move to another different target. This therefore comes across as a WP:SUPERVOTE. CNC (talk) 22:35, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (meaning either reclose or relist). And given that there seems to be consensus that this a WP:SUPERVOTE, I hope Extorc refrains from closing other discussions in this topic area. Given how controversial I-P topics are right now, we need truly uninvolved people to close these discussions.VR (Please ping on reply) 05:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
This move request was closed as "no consensus" where the lack of consensus is based on a faulty reading of WP:UE.
According to BilledMammal who closed as no consensus:
"Reviewing it again, I stand by my previous close. Editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. "
This statement is incorrect as roughly half of the reliable sources used "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without providing any translation and none used "Welsh Language Society" except as a translation the first time "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" was presented.
WP:UE does not apply here as the WP:COMMONNAME used in reliable English language sources (and in most pages that link to this one) is Cymdeithas yr Iaith.Morwennol (talk) 10:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (uninvolved). Reading the discussion, it appears that oppose voters have a mistaken belief that WP:UE is a blanket ban on all foreign language titles. Sionk, the one opposer who appears to engage with the evidence laid out in any way, claims that an article that uses the Welsh name in its headline, and adds the translated name once, is evidence that the Welsh name is not in common usage. Mach61 11:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (involved). WP:ENGLISHTITLE states "If a word or phrase (originally taken from some other language) is commonly used by English-language sources, it can be considered to be an English-language word or phrase (example: coup d'état)." Nothing in there suggests we should not use a foreign term as a title if some sources provide a translation for that term along with the term itself. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Additional comment: I've notified BilledMammal (the closer) about this request and put the required notice on the article's talk page. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (uninvolved) Both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISHTITLE apply here as page moves are often balancing acts. While those supporting the move were slightly more numerous in number, those opposing were not incorrect in terms of their policy analysis, and their concerns could not be discounted, especially the concern, confirmed by those supporting, that the English name is listed next to the Welsh name in these articles. I would have closed this as a no consensus and would have moved only with a couple additional support !votes. SportingFlyer T·C 17:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: there are numerous RSs referenced in the move request which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith without providing any English translation. There are several which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith alongside alongside an English translation the first time the name is used. There are none which use Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I was only reviewing the close of the discussion and not the content, but you've got me curious about whether the name was ever used on its own: I was able to find lots of instances, including [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] SportingFlyer T·C 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that’s new evidence that heavily supports the Oppose position. Thank you for taking the time to find that. —В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I really have no preference for the outcome here. My reading of the discussion was simply that based on my reading of the discussion, both those supporting and those opposing made valid arguments, and consensus was not such that a move was clear. I don't think it needs to be re-opened - these "English or native language" discussions can be really difficult! SportingFlyer T·C 05:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for digging those out. I think it's mentioned in this MR or the previous one that Welsh Language Society was commonly used in the past to refer to the organisation, and is more commonly used to refer to the organisation in a historical context. Whereas Cymdeithas yr Iaith is strongly preferred for the contemporary organisation.
- When I was looking for stuff using WLS I applied a self-imposed criteria:
- - Less than a decade old
- - UK based rather than internationakl]
- - Referring to the contemporary organisation rather than the org in a historical context
- I think four of the ten sources meet that criteria - one is a letter, one is an English local paper and the other two are from the BBC but are 8 and 9 years old respectively, so at the upper range of my search. I'm not sure they tip the scales (though they are interesting data that ought to be included). Morwennol (talk) 06:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me as if - well, if this closes as no consensus or endorse, then the page is likely to be requested to be moved again in the future. And it seems to me that the problem for those like yourself supporting the move is that the org is notable enough to be continually referenced in media, but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, because the vast majority of articles include "the Welsh Language Society" pretty much next to the Welsh language name as a proper noun. From a closer's perspective, if I closed this, that would make it difficult to down-weight those opposing the change. Urdd Gobaith Cymru, for instance, isn't described with a proper noun next to its name in the media. If there has been a shift towards just the Welsh name, and if there's another move request, you may have a better chance of being successful if you can show how the shift is occurring. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- "...but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, ..." Why is that a problem? To meet the recognizability criteria there is no need to be "so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name". The threshold is: "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." --В²C ☎ 04:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Because I was not talking about the Wikipedia rules there, but rather about how the articles I've reviewed on this topic have been generally written. SportingFlyer T·C 05:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- "...but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, ..." Why is that a problem? To meet the recognizability criteria there is no need to be "so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name". The threshold is: "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." --В²C ☎ 04:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me as if - well, if this closes as no consensus or endorse, then the page is likely to be requested to be moved again in the future. And it seems to me that the problem for those like yourself supporting the move is that the org is notable enough to be continually referenced in media, but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, because the vast majority of articles include "the Welsh Language Society" pretty much next to the Welsh language name as a proper noun. From a closer's perspective, if I closed this, that would make it difficult to down-weight those opposing the change. Urdd Gobaith Cymru, for instance, isn't described with a proper noun next to its name in the media. If there has been a shift towards just the Welsh name, and if there's another move request, you may have a better chance of being successful if you can show how the shift is occurring. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that’s new evidence that heavily supports the Oppose position. Thank you for taking the time to find that. —В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- I was only reviewing the close of the discussion and not the content, but you've got me curious about whether the name was ever used on its own: I was able to find lots of instances, including [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] SportingFlyer T·C 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: there are numerous RSs referenced in the move request which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith without providing any English translation. There are several which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith alongside alongside an English translation the first time the name is used. There are none which use Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Overturn to moved (uninvolved). Not only were opposers outnumbered, but none really addressed the nom’s main point: the Welsh name is the COMMONNAME based on usage in reliable English sources, You know, like the BBC. Closer apparently gave too much weight to opposer’s stating the undisputed fact that many translate the name. But that’s so those seeing the name for the first time understand what it means; that doesn’t make it the subject’s name. Though not explicitly mentioned in the RM, underlying the Support argument, and countering closer’s finding, is the Recognizability WP:CRITERIA standard: the name must be recognizable to someone familiar with the subject area. Until a short time ago I was not familiar with this subject area. But now that I am familiar, I recognize Cymdeithas yr Iaith as the name of this organization. There is no requirement to make any title recognizable to anyone unfamiliar with the topic, but that seems to be the goal the opposers (and closer) are trying to achieve. —В²C ☎ 19:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)- Relist based on significant new information presented by SportingFlyer above showing that Welsh Language Society is commonly used solely, not merely as a translation of the Welsh name, in RS to refer to this organization. Those ten references clearly establish COMMONNAME per UE. It’s unfortunate that this was not raised in the original RM to counter the nom’s argument, but here we are. The emphasis on the English used only as a translation of the Welsh in that discussion, even by Opposers, was very misleading. The RM needs to be reopened, the new information presented, and all previous participants notified. —-В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to moved IMO the arguments in favour of the move were better grounded in policy and one of the oppose !votes was a misunderstanding of policy (WP:UE) and should have been disregarded. Number 57 21:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (involved): as pointed out in the previous move discussions and here, WP:UE is not a blanket prohibition on non-English titles if their use is well-established. I think that bar was met, and I don't think the use of courtesy translations lowers them below the bar (for comparison, mention of the Taoiseach in English-language sources will often carry a courtesy translation of "Irish prime minister", but will thereon continue with "Taoiseach"; same applies for Cymdeithas). Sceptre (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. < uninvolved > This type of closure, no consensus, always takes a bit of boldness. There is no firm basis for overturning this closure. Based upon good arguments all around, there is no solid ground for any other than the no-consensus outcome. Relisted once already with plenty of participation and time to reach consensus if that had been possible, there is also no viable reason to reopen and relist. This was definitely a correct outcome, which I, too, would have used to conclude this RM. Good gutsy close! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 18:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (uninvolved). Per SportingFlyer above, and per the closer's assessment when asked about this - "editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. Further, given the recent consensus not to move the article, there is a slightly higher bar to be met to produce a different consensus - that result has to be taken into account." There seems no reason to discount the opposing arguments here, particularly for a fresh RM so soon after a previous one, and the bar for a consensus to move was not met. Based on the fresh evidence of other sources not using the Welsh, this is even more relevant. If anything, that leans the conversation even further towards not moving. — Amakuru (talk) 08:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
X (social network) (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page was moved prematurely when there was no consensus from the discussion; there were 29 comments supporting the move and 20 opposing it. In the mover's talk page discussion, they said quote "In my opinion, WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense.", and also "From my observation, more people supported the move. Considering this, and acknowledging the series of previous failed attempts with Twitter, I found it acceptable". These two statements, in my view, show a lack of understanding of how move discussions are supposed to work (they made a choice that aligned with their own common sense rather than consensus, and they counted comments as votes). When asked for clarification, the closer stated "If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you", which shows an unwillingness to discuss their decision to move the page. In short, this page was moved way before consensus had been reached based on the personal "common sense" that a non-admin found "acceptable". Di (they-them) (talk) 04:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
Engineer's Building airstrike (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a straightforward supervote, with the closer deciding several things. The first being that "massacre" is non-neutral, and that the other pages within the same category of pages with the title "massacre" are not relevant. The close explicitly endorses maintaining systemic bias by refusing to engage with the fact that events that are titled "massacre" related to the ongong war in Gaza are not relevant to whether or not this event should so titled. A substantial majority of editors disagreed with the proposal and further disagreed with the claim that "massacre" is POV or that the other articles in the same category of pages are not relevant. That was ignored by a straightforward supervote. If the closer felt that their view was that this should be moved they should have voted instead of imposing their view over the consensus of editors opposed to the move. nableezy - 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
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