Talk:Pelagius of Córdoba

Latest comment: 7 years ago by InternetArchiveBot in topic External links modified

POV - unsupported deletion of historically documented sexual material from article

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This article has been tagged as POV due to the repeated and unsupported deletions of documentation of the attempted pederastic seduction of Pelagius by the Caliph. Haiduc 01:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

Pederasty

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Pederasty is of the essence of this story, what argument is there for obhscuring it? Haiduc 00:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

If editing the article is "mutilating others' research", then the article is off-base. Wikipedia is not supposed to be someone's research. This article reads like someone's research for a graduate seminar in gender studies. Pederasty is not "of the essence of the story", the essence of the story is Pelagius of Cordoba. Richardson mcphillips (talk) 12:50, 26 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Someone else's research is exactly what Wikipedia is supposed to contain. Not original research. deisenbe (talk) 13:15, 26 April 2016 (UTC)Reply

Info on pederastic nature of the conflict is everywhere

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Such as, "There is the story of the ninth-century martyr Pelagius, a boy whose beauty so aroused 'Abd-al-Rahman III, the caliph of Cordoba, that he wished to enjoy its delights. The boy's refusal led to torture and death. Within decades of the boy's martyrdom narratives circulated and he began to be honored as a saint, whose cult included a Mozarabic text for Vespers, Matins, and Mass. While the stories cited by Jordan served an obvious polemical purpose for European Christians in their demonizing of the Muslims, who are pictured as prone to same-sex desire, there is more in these texts than that. "As it begins to act out its own worship of the boy-saint, the Christian community seems as much bothered by his beauty as was the caliph" (28). For "... the flattery of his beauty that is sung by male choirs ..." (27) does unavoidably bring up questions of the point of such God-bestowed male beauty, so dangerous to its bearer and to its observers, including (perhaps?) the monks chanting Pelagius's praises."[1]

and . . .

"That liturgy, he notes, focuses as intently on Pelagius's beauty as did the caliph." in "Ganymede/Son of Getron: Medieval Monasticism and the Drama of Same-Sex Desire" by V. A. Kolve in Speculum, Vol. 73, No. 4 (Oct., 1998), pp. 1014-1067

and . . .

"Pelagius retains the Christian construct of blasphemous, sodomitic caliph,. while defusing the ephebe’s troubling erotic appeal for Christian chroniclers..." in "Queer Iberia: Sexualities, Cultures, and Crossings from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance (review)" by Leora Lev, in Journal of the History of Sexuality - Volume 10, Number 1, January 2001, pp. 119-122

You should have no trouble finding these even in your school library. Haiduc 02:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Reply

  • I've just confirmed (in about five minutes, using Columbia's online e-journal library) the quotes proferred by Haiduc from Speculum and J. Hist. Sex.; they appear to be in context and support his view that the axis of pederasty has long been prominent in Pelagius' mythos, regardless of its truth. Whatever modern opinions about its veracity, it seems entirely appropriate to discuss St. Pelagius's historical context. Let's not let modern politics or mores interfere with maintaining high quality, thorough articles--and get that disputed tag off the page and reinsert the expurgated material. Citizen Sunshine 02:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Amazing that you could bring it up online ... my offer of compromise would be this ... that the article be written up first according to the catholic encyclopedia, and then have a section that discusses Haiduc's preffered version. Will that suffice? --evrik (talk) 17:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Reply
I do not mind material from the Catholic encyclopaedia being included, but you well know we cannot privilege one source over another. But let's go ahead and present that point of view first, and then we'll detail the academic view. No problem there. Haiduc 17:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)Reply

Attention Tag

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As you appear to have reached a compromise on the POV issues brought up above, I am removing the "attention" tag from the Wikiproject infobox. (The article is looking good, by the way. It seems to acknowledge both the tradition of the pederasty in a way that allows for the fact that not everyone agrees on the veracity of the account). Pastordavid 18:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

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