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Talk:List of X-Men members/Archive 6

< Talk:List of X-Men members
Latest comment: 4 months ago by Sewnbegun in topic Trance and Loa
Archive 1 ← Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7

Proposal to change a lot of things in the list of X-Men members.

Latest comment: 4 months ago57 comments3 people in discussion

I want to contribute positively and do improvement and some addition in this but @Hotwiki: advised me I have to have discussion at the talk page first for such drastic changes. So I invite you all (@Archimedean:, @Comic master:, @DeadpoolRP:, @Dimadick:, @Gijimu:, @Hotwiki:, @J Greb:, @MitchTCuthbert:, @MorbidChid:, @Morwen:, @Oopla32606:, @Phoenix741:, @Shoxee1214:, @StarSpangledKiwi:, @Storm1221:, @Tomahawk1221:,@ToshiroIto7:, @Ultrabasurero:, @Rtkat3:) to this discussion and for feedbacks so appropriate changes can be made. I have also attached my sandbox ([1]) to understand what changes am going to propose. Below is my proposal which is long and read it carefully;

1. Separate Recruits by decade by giving each decade their own sub sections so it will be easy to edit them separately (a difficulty I face while editing).

2. Doing changes/updates in Name column:

  • Add "Bobby" in Iceman.
  • Transfer "Hank" ahead of Phillip in Beast.
  • Update Marvel Girl's surname as Grey-Summers (after marriage).
  • Add "Cal" in Mimic.
  • Add "Alex" in Havok.
  • Add "Peter" in Colossus.
  • Replace "Kitty" with "Kate" and transfer it ahead of Anne in Sprite / Ariel / Shadowcat / Shadowkat.
  • Remove "Erik Magnus" from Magneto and instead add "Erik Lehnsherr" after a slash (/) after Max Eisenhardt.
  • Add "Betsy" in Psylocke.
  • Add "Jubes" in Jubilee.
  • Add "Sam" in Cannonball.
  • Add "Dani" in Mirage / Moonstar.
  • Add "Jono" in Chamber.
  • Correct Husk's middle name which is Elisabeth and not Elizabeth.
  • Add "Gabe" in Vulcan.
  • Add "Jimmy" in Warpath.
  • Correct the format of Karma's name in first name/middle name/surname which will be Xuân Cao Mạnh instead of Mạnh Cao Xuân.
  • Add "Bobby" in Sunspot.
  • Add "Ty" in Cloak.
  • Add "Tabby" in Boom-Boom.
  • Add "Doug" in Cypher.
  • Expand X-Man's name as Nathaniel "Nate" Grey.
  • Add "Jamie" in Multiple Man.

For sub teams see [2].

3. Link wikipedia pages that already exist to the comic books mentioned in "joined in" column for the first time in X-Men and Substiute team sections individually. Just like X-Men: Second Coming is linked in X-23 / Wolverine / Talon's joined in column. For example, possible likings in X-Men section:

For sub teams see [3].

4. Some years mentioned in this articles of joined in column is totally wrong. I have corrected it in my [4]. Also adding months before years mentioned in joined in will help to have a chronological order of characters (in the order of when they joined). Just like List of Avengers members. To reassure, I have spend a day to correct those mistakes and anybody can confirm it.

  • Like Ariel joined in July 2009; Domino in August 2009; Cloak, Dagger and Boom-Boom in August, 2009 but different date while Danger joined in September 2009. So correct order in the list should be Ariel, Domino, Cloak, Dagger, Boom-Boom and Danger instead of current order in this article that is Domino, Cloak, Dagger, Boom-Boom, Ariel, Danger.

5. Add formerly or a.k.a in the codenames in Character column as it will help to know which codename is currently used by the character or which codename was used latest. Just like in List of Avengers members.

  • For example, Rachel Summers and Kate Pryde's character name are messy because they are bombed by numerous codenames so above mentioned solution will help.

6. Adding/updating codenames which Characters used while being an X-Man, that are missing:

  • Captain Krakoa in Cyclops (Used briefly during Krakoan age - X-Men vol. 6 #6 ).
  • Juggernaut in Colossus (Uncanny X-Men #542).
  • Black Queen in White Queen (Used after Dark Avengers issues / briefly before Schism). I have to find exact issue where she used it.

7. As the per 3rd notation, mentioned the timelines as notes for the following (and create a new notes section) so that we can identify members from alternate timelines:

For sub teams see [5].

8. Remove some character's codenames which they did not used when they were X-Man.

  • Remove Askani from Phoenix / Marvel Girl / Prestige / Askani as it was only recently used by her but she was not member of main X-Men team after Krakoan age.
  • Similarly, Maker from Forge.
  • Similarly, Zorn from Xorn / Zorn (Shen Xorn).
  • Similarly, Box from Madison Jeffries.
  • Similarly, Scout from Honey Badger / Scout.

9. Thunderbird (Neil Shaara) was already a member in X-Men (vol. 2) #100 but X-Men Unlimited #27 (2000) is the issue in which how Thunderbird (Neal Shaara) joined X-Men so add (flashback story) like the original members.

10. Replace/add Trinary's reference with ([1]). Add this reference ([2]) to Cypher, Warlock, Frenzy, Legion, X-Man, Blink, Ink, Honey Badger and Gentle (some of them don't even have any reference). Some references/sources still don't have their website and author mentioned.

11. Add the Krakoan duplicate of Laura Kinney in her section just like Old Man Log was added in Wolverine's section. This duplicate joined official and main team of X-Men but still remain out of this list.

12. Add Woofer in the list as he joined X-Men X-Men, vol. 6 #25 (2023) and had appeared in Fall of House of X #1 (2024) with others. But I will need to discuss here with proof.

13. I would like to make improvement in X-Men-In-Training according/as in [6] but I will need feedback first.

14. Remove X-Force members after Vanisher till Krakoan age (Maybe Krakoan age members are already not added) because after that Cyclops had disbanded X-Force team but Wolverine led another team independently of X-Men. So those members are not members X-Men sub team because they were not sanctioned by X-Men. Just like how Cyclops's team was not sanctioned by X-Men after AVS: Consequences #5 and their X-Men-In-training members like Goldball, Tempus, Hijack etc are not added to this date. Just like many members removed in past after they realised not to be sanctioned as X-Men or unofficially. You can see [7] for X-Force list for feedback.

15. I would like remove Secret X-Men sub team which was actually added by me. But I realize while editing there is no mention of Secret X-Men in that one-shot. They were just individuals who lost X-Men. Marvel again did the same for 2nd Hellfire Gala in X-Men Unlimited Infinity Comic #55 whose title was of course Secret X-Men.

One question: Are Bleeding Cool and Aiptcomics reliable sources? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 13:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea to add the names which the characters actually use, to improve the sources of the article, and to provide links to relevant Wikipedia articles. I am not certain how to treat X-Men splinter groups and factions. Dimadick (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Thanks @Dimadick, I will start doing the edits later. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 16:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Ringardiumleviossa: Since you were the one that added the Secret X-Men section, and admitted just now - that it is misinformation. Please remove it, I don't think you need a third opinion or permission for that. Hotwiki (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Done. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Ringardiumleviossa: I will once again voice my thoughts about Woofer. His appearance in X-Men #25 (2023) didn't make the character a full time X-Men (especially compare to the other X-Men members that joined in that same issue). He wasn't seen as a member with the actual X-Men team in that issue. This was already discussed last year in this talk page. As for Fall of House of X #1, what role in that issue will heavily imply that he is a member of the X-Men? There aren't a lot of solid evidences that Woofer actually joined the X-Men. Hotwiki (talk) 14:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
As for these "Captain Krakoa in Cyclops (Used briefly during Krakoan age - X-Men vol. 6 #6 )., Juggernaut in Colossus (Uncanny X-Men #542) and Black Queen in White Queen" claims. When an editor is questioned for the posted content, the questioned editor actually need to provide a reliable source to verify things - in which @Ringardiumleviossa: has yet to provide. Not everybody here an easy access to the comic books, to quickly verify those claims. So its your responsibility Ringardiumleviossa to provide a reference for those claims. Hotwiki (talk) 14:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Because there aren't any of them except in comics (many codenames on this articles also don't have references) and I was busy with typing this proposal and my sandbox. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
If you can't provide comic book scans or references to those claims, then it shouldn't be included in the article. We aren't just going to post those codenames based on your claims, especially I already asked you for a reference (that I can instantlh access) which you unfortunately can't provide at the moment. Hotwiki (talk) 14:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki Even though Cyclops used Captain Krakoa name as diguise that doesn't meant it can't be included because at the end it was another codename used by him in the X-Men. This Captain Krakoa codename was also used by Hydra's Steve Rogers in Uncanny X-Men and future Kamala Khan in Rise of Power of X so we can't ignore that codename. Here are the references for Cyclops: [3][4] Leave Black Queen for Emma Frost as I am not getting any reference for her. And for Colossus, here are the references: [5][6] And I'm not letting you say that these references are also not reliable like Woofer's one (which is still not reliable according to you and I don't know how). Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Now prove that Askani from Rachel Summers used Askani, Forge used Maker, Shen Xorn used Zorn, Madison Jefferies used Box and Gabby Kinney used Scout codenames when they were X-Men with reference or scan. If not then they need to be removed. Funny how ask for reference regarding this things but when I already have references for Woofer you deny them. Back to point, please provide references as above mentioned. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay I don't need to prove anything to you, especially I'm not the one who added the codenames sich as Askani, Maker, Zorn, Box and Scout in the article. Other editors have edited this article fyi, aside from me. Also you're saying this right after you just sent me a thank you in my notifications? Passive aggression? Hotwiki (talk) 16:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
No, I asked you for references from you because you keep adding them by (indirectly or directly I don't know) by reverting all of my edits (see it please). And I thanked because of different issue and not this one (confirm it too). Anyways if not then you need to remove those codenames. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 16:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
You know you were reverted in the past as you made dozen of drastic changes without discussing them in the talk page first which involved you not following the Manual of Style, uncited or poorly referenced content, etc. And you also cannot order me to delete things which I didn't even originally add in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 16:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also I've checked the history of this article. It was an Ip user who added Askani as a codename for Rachel Summers.[8] Hotwiki (talk) 16:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Feel free to remove Askank, as that was unexplained and unreferenced when added in the article. I don't know how that content lasted this long in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Done. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
It is not compulsory for original editor to remove that information. Secondly, I am not ordering you, I am just asking you to search for references (Because I can't find any) so that my edits of removing them won't again be reverted by you because you would've also searched for them. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
With so many changes you've done recently, it was impossible for me to not miss every single change and then explain every single thing to you. Even the proposal you posted in the talk page, seems information overload. Hotwiki (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I get it, can we focus on improving these article instead of telling the tale of who did who? I am going to remove those codenames as they were not used as X-Men. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 16:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Thanks @Hotwiki, and I once again voice my thoughts about Woofer and added some references here:
If you read the second source added below, even the writer Gerry Duggan himself says that Woofer is an X-Man. I think these are enough proofs for Woofer's inclusion to the list and I humbly request on that.
1. [7]
2. [8]
But the decision will be based on consensus. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Again, editors who have read the actual comic book issue X-Men #25 (2023) have already discussed this before in the talk page and concluded that Woofer didn't actually become a member of the X-Men in that issue. And the references you posted, actually don't line up with the actual comic book content - which again, were already discussed last year in the talk page. Hotwiki (talk) 14:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Don't include "last year's talk" as "primary source" here because we are having a new talk and with actual sources, and again I'm waiting for others to know what they think on various topics mentioned above. There are various topics but you are silent on those @Hotwiki like always. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
We aren't going to disregard issues or discussions that already occurred in this talk page. I'm pointing out that Woofer was already discussed before[9], as not an official member of the X-Men by several editors, and it shouldn't be discredited now. Hotwiki (talk) 14:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
There weren't any refences for Woofer at that time but now have so I'm pointing those references. And I have invited those editors as well so let see if they still have same opinion or going to change it. Leave Woofer on this consensus, can we? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
And there are not still enough references that will prove Woofer is a X-Men member. Do you have actual comic book scans or pictures that feature Woofer with the X-Men team - that will really prove that he became an official member of the X-Men team? I've searched, and I didn't see any pictures or scans of him with the X-Men team. Hotwiki (talk) 14:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki If you don't want Woofer on the list then leave it and "wait for time" like you had told in the last talk regarding Woofer. Or you can add him as comment (hidden for others but will be in the code) until his staus is clear to all. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 09:00, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
As for proposal #5. ("Add formerly or a.k.a in the codenames in Character column"). I don't see the need for this. Some members like Kitty Pryde have changed codename at least 4 times but looking at the current article, the way the codenames are presented isn't confusing. I don't need to see the need to write "formerly" or "aka" in the codename column. Maybe, just bold the current codename for a current X-Men member. Hotwiki (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
It was confusing to me when I first saw that, that's why I recommended it. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
How is it confusing if you are aware of the current team (and I'm assuming you are aware of the current X-Men team, based on your comments in this talkpage. Like I suggested, just bold the current codename for Kitty Pryde, if you really want to highlight the current codename of a current X-Men member. Hotwiki (talk) 15:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I was aware of Kate Pryde being in the X-Men and not until I read the comic solicitation then I learned about her codename as Shadowkat and thay for Shadowkat, I misintepreted as her former codename - Shadowcat. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
For proposal #3. (3. Link wikipedia pages that already exist to the comic books mentioned in "joined in" column for the first time in X-Men and Substiute team sections individually.) I've reread Wikipedia:Overlinking, and based from I've read (Duplicate linking in stand-alone and embedded lists is permissible if it significantly aids the reader.). Its fine to link or repeat links for comic book titles. Hotwiki (talk) 15:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I will link those later but only where they are mentioned first time to avoid overlinking. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 15:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki, I think this page is not worth my time and edits and I'd rather contribute to other pages. I can't leave it whole too. Dimadick agreed to use those names and linkings. You also agreed for linkings. Get some updated references from my sandbox, Add those codenames after verifying them and remove others; and do as you want to contribute this page because you are active on this page for a while. I am leaving this talk and article. Hope other editors in future will make positive efforts. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay, then you edited once again here without posting any references and making disruptive edits claiming nicknames. Stick to your word. Hotwiki (talk) 08:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
@Ringardiumleviossa:, if you've been reverted for unreferenced claims. Stating "go check their wikipedia page" is NOT the way to do things here. We don't use wikipedia articles as a reference while editing things here. I've assisted you in this article as much as I could and let you slide in the past for your questionable output. Now I'm asking to revert your unreferenced edits. If not, I'd report this issue to the administrators. Hotwiki (talk) 08:12, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay so we need references for freaking full names now? Or only for those whose full names are edited by me. It is frustrating that whenever I edit something, you revert it whole. I ALWAYS back off but you never do it. You revert all my edits without thinking if that can be useful information. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:19, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
If you were asked to provide a reference for your unreferenced edits, then you should probably include reference to avoid issue. This is a collaborative site. Hotwiki (talk) 08:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Whenever I try to use references regarding Woofer, Cyclops name as Captain Krakoa, Colossus name as Juggernaut, you simply don't respond or announce them to be not reliable. So leave the reference arguement? Where were are the references when you edited those full names? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Just because you provided a link, it doesn't mean its an automatic YES, editors here still have to verify the sources/content. Again this is a collaborative site. Hotwiki (talk) 08:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
You are verifying from 2 days? If you don't have time for this page, why tell "I will reply in 12 hours?" Leave the improvement of this page for others, instead of revery every single edits except the ones done by you? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:34, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Don't attack personally, I never told I am leaving this page from editing forever. And you can't tell not to edit again. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
I didn't tell you to leave. You were the one who announced that you were leaving this site and i believed you. Now you are back, making unreferenced claims and deleting/adding things without properly discussing them in the talk page, when you were reverted. This is like the 20th time I've explained things to you and you are still causing issues in this article. Hotwiki (talk) 08:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
We are supposed to discuss every single thing in the talk page? Suppose if I had to remove a full stop from "honory member" because it is not even a sentence, I have to ask first in talk page, then edit it? Because you just reverted that edit like everything. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
If there's an issue, yes. Its why talk pages exist. Hotwiki (talk) 08:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Removing a full stop from "honorary members" in Lucid's section seems as issue to you? I think you want this page as you want and not let other editors do anything which you don't think is right from your point of view. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:27, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Aside from posting unreferenced edits, you are also attacking me. This won't slide well. Anyway I'm compiling a report. Hotwiki (talk) 08:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
It is not my intention to attack you but you ALWAYS revert ALL my edits so who is doing who? I want an administrator to see this talk and edits before anything else. I am exhausted. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki Ask an administrator to see this talks and let them decide. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
You've been reverted because you simply made too many unrefenced edits. Then aside from that, you've deleted things that shouldn't be deleted. Again, if you want to make changes without an issue. Use the talkpage. As seen in this talk page, I've told you about this numerous times. I literally had to explain everything to in the past week. Look at how lengthy these discussions are. Hotwiki (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Explain here what I deleted so if administrator check, it will be helpful to understand them. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
I was just adding full name just like you did in past week and nothing else. What is this unreferenced edits? I agree it was unreferenced because I didn't saw any other refernces in others full name. Why is it always have to be me who always have problem? I am not vandalising this page or something, I am not writting story of my own or something but still my edits got reverted. Please contact an administrator to see the talks on this page and recent edits so that this issue end right here. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:42, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
I hope you know those "nicknames" I added were based on your proposal in this talk page, and it actually meant that I read your entire proposal. I just obviously didn't add every nickname you posted as I was unsure if they all were correct. Hotwiki (talk) 12:44, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
That is why I talked about in talk page first, and I checked the remaining names from their respective wikipedia pages and note that even I didn't all those names, only the ones which were seen in own Marvel's website or their wikipedia page individually. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 12:56, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Actually when you were reverted today. I was the first one to notify you in this talk page, to add a reference. You then reverted it to your own version, before discussing things in the talkpage. And to this minute, you still haven't provided a reference for the changes you've made in the article in the last 24 hours. Hotwiki (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, but I am not editing right now and can't talk here. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 13:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Also, for the administrators who might be checking this talk page. I would like inform that a lot from Ringardiumleviossa's proposal in the talk page were implemented in the article in the past few days, such as adding nicknames, making separation sections, Wikipedia links to comic book tiles. So its not true, that the user's changes were simply reverted and discarded. I personally took my time to read the editors' long proposal and the things I agreed with, were implemented in this article. When Ringardiumleviossa asked me directly (in this talkpage) to remove certain things, I communicated back and removed those certain things per the editor's request in the talkpage. Hotwiki (talk) 14:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cardona, Ian (March 9, 2018). "X-Men Red: Meet Trinary, The Marvel Universe's Newest Major Mutant". Retrieved February 8, 2024.
  2. ^ Jalali, Jessica (July 11, 2023). "14 Most Powerful X-Men Members Who Joined in the 2010s (Ranked)". Screen Rant. Retrieved February 8, 2024.
  3. ^ Lovett, Jamie (January 9, 2022). "X-Men: Marvel Reveals Captain Krakoa's Identity". Comicbook. Retrieved February 9, 2024.
  4. ^ Donahue, Casey (January 9, 2024). "Marvel Officially Confirms Kamala Khan's New Codename as a Member of the X-Men". Screen Rant. Retrieved February 9, 2024.
  5. ^ Liam, McGuire (January 27, 2022). "How Marvel's Ultimate Juggernaut Beat The Original". Screen Rant. Retrieved February 9, 2024.
  6. ^ Webber, Tim (April 7, 2023). "A History of Cyttorak and Those Who Wield His Destructive Power". Marvel. Retrieved February 9, 2024.
  7. ^ Wood, Robert (August 17, 2023). "X-Men's New Member Was Designed to Give Them an Infinite-Power Attack". Screen Rant. Retrieved February 3, 2024.
  8. ^ Hassan, Chris (August 14, 2023). "X-Men Monday #215 – Gerry Duggan Talks 'X-Men' at FAN EXPO Boston 2023". AIPT Comics. Retrieved February 3, 2024.

Boom-Boom, Madison Jeffries, Doctor Nemesis, Woofer

Latest comment: 4 months ago56 comments4 people in discussion

The IGN source that has been used vastly on this page is not 100% accurate. Firstly, Boom-Boom is not on that source, actually she hadn't even joined X-Men officially (maybe a fan of her added her). So it is better to remove Boom-Boom. Secondly, when I said IGN source is not accurate, I meant many members have their joining comic and dates wrong. I suggest either remove this source or rectify the mistakes. Thirdly, Doctor Nemesis and Madison Jeffries are on that source/reference but if you read comic, they weren't recruited for X-Men team, they were recruited for X-Men science team (X-Club). So either remove both of them from main team or add other X-Club members into main team if considered as splinter team like (Gold, Blue, X.S.E.). Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 14:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Those members you've mentioned are credited as members of the X-Men in the handbook that Marvel Comics officially released[10]. While the IGN reference is used since not everyone has an access to comics and handbooks. So no, don't remove those members. They would have been removed a long time ago if they weren't credited as members by Marvel Comics. TheHotwiki (talk) 18:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
You are right but the Handbook of the Marvel Universe is just a guide, not a canon story. For example, Doctor Nemesis and Madison Jeffries joined X-Club proves that. Also, you'll need a reliable source proving he is indeed an official X-Men member. So I again suggest either remove both of them from main team or add other remaining two X-Club members into main team: Dr. Yuriko Takiguchi and Dr. Kavita Rao. But still the correct joining comics and dates remain dilemma. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Please refer to this scan of the last page in the referenced X of Swords Handbook. It is the official membership published by Marvel.

I understand there's a lot of grey area surrounding membership in-story, but the scan presented here represents a succession of official membership rosters (official handbooks of the Marvel Universe). You'll see that Dr. Nemesis and Box are both X-Men and X-Club. Hope this clarifies.. https://onedrive.live.com/embed?resid=E111C51249D1FBAE%2120837&authkey=%21AKxGO1MBvS7pWnE&width=1988&height=3056 2601:285:8280:F430:C50C:64E8:97C2:4FFB (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay, the only I learn from this talk is that this wikipedia page list is based on the Marvel Handbooks and not on "canon story". The latest handbook mentioning X-Men is X of Swords Handbook (2020) So why there are further members included in the list after 2020? We got to remove whole section of 2020s and wait for the next handbook before expanding the list. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 19:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
You know this article existed before that Handbook was released. Boom Boom, Dr. Nemesis and Madison Jeffries were already in the article more than ten years ago. That handbook was just another evidence/proof that those were members of the team. It is such a non issue in my opinion. Let it go. Editors are open to add new members of the team in this article, when new members are introduced. The handbook isn't the ONLY source of reference here. Hotwiki (talk) 00:22, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
For your information, the IGN source of this article is clearly based on Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z vol. 1 #13 (2010), and I am letting it go because its okay if you don't want to add more members aside that handbook according to Wikipedia:Article size but the fact remains that Handbooks are just guide and not canon story.

I agree with you that there are also other source; sources that we can use while adding new members. So why not add Woofer in the list? In the last talk: Dark X-Men and Woofer, he was decided to be removed from the list. It was right because there were no sources added; also two editors: @Storm1221, @Hotwiki were against of his inclusion and only one - @ToshiroIto7 was in favour. It was decided to wait for one or two more issues if he reappears. He did on the same page as some other X-Men in Fall of House of X #1 last month. That's why I added him. He was again removed by @Hotwiki on the basis of no refernces. That's why I added him with reliable reference but @Hotwiki again removed him on the basis of previous talk/discussion.

It is clearly seen biased opinions WP:ADDBIAS here because Aurora joined X-Men for only one issue in Secret Invasion: X-Men and is still included (due to the handbook) but Woofer can't be? I don't have handbook as proof but I do have sources according to Wikipedia:Guide to addressing bias, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Citing sources. If you read the second source added below, even the writer Gerry Duggan himself says that Woofer is an X-Man. I think these are enough proofs for Woofer's inclusion to the list and I humbly request on that.
1. [1]
2. [2] Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 05:52, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh, resorting to personal attacks and calling editors "biased" won't sit well if you're reported. Hotwiki (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki, Danger in X-Club and X-Force members who are after the Vanisher are not included in this official list scan, so I request to remove them. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 11:02, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Can you specify which list scan you are referring to? Hotwiki (talk) 11:04, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The one you sent me above starting with "onedrive". Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 11:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Done. Hotwiki (talk) 11:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Hey, Indra (from X-Men in training) is also not in the list of the scan, we should probably remove him. Plus there is a lot of inaccuracy in some of character's joined comic (all of them are x-men trainees). Can we correct them with comics mentioned in handbooks since every other character has the same joined comics as mentioned in the handbooks except trainees - @Hotwiki? Sewnbegun (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
You should be asking this in a newer talk page section, so it'd be easier to see this request/newer discussion. Also if you're planning to "correct" information, please post your references here for verification and avoid issues in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 10:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
I will do that. Sewnbegun (talk) 11:13, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Woofer is not a honorable member of the X-Men

To the person, that keeps insisting that Woofer is, I disagree. This has been discussed before in this talk page.Hotwiki (talk) 06:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, using Aiptcomics.com as a reference? Please find a better reference per Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Hotwiki (talk) 06:14, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
Try to be calm, Sir. It is not personal attack (attack is what you've just threatened to report me), I just wrote the events of what happened while adding Woofer. If I wanted some "attacks", I would've gone for edit warring and not be on the talk page. It is true that some editors are biased or otherwise Wikipedia:Guide to addressing bias wouldn't have been existed. Just read the whole discussion again and see how you sound, so please try to be civil. Talks/discussion on the same topic can happen again with time and improvement. I humbly think it is biased (even if you were not biased while making that decision) because Woofer was removed because of small reasons. I countered those reasons above and got threatened to be reported. It doesn't matter of consensus / if you agree or not because I have another reliable source and that is enough according to Wikipedia:Citing sources unless you also want to declare it not reliable. That's why I had bold font while mentioning the sole purpose of Aiptcomics.com source there to indicate that writer himself has told Woofer to be an X-Man (Which can also be found on the first source). Again, I humbly request to add him to the list because I don't want edit warring. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 06:43, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
No, read what you posted. You blatantly accused this article of having some sort of bias. You were first questioning about inclusion of Dr. Nemesis, Jeffries and Boom Boom. Then when you were presented by clear evidence that those were members of the X-Men by two different editors. You suddenly made this about Woofer, Aurora and bringing up "bias" claims. Hotwiki (talk) 06:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
And I backed off after being presented by clear evidence. I was also going to add a new topic on Woofer after this topic ends, but I decided against it because I got a point of references from you in this topic. Aurora was just a comparison/counter for the reason on why Woofer can't be added as he only appeared twice (She wasn't even declared as X-Man like Woofer in that issue). I am not asking for removal of Aurora now and also before Boom-Boom, Madison Jeffries and Doctor Nemesis as after you revealed that this whole page is based on "handbooks", I backed off and agreed with you to let them be. Then when I presented evidence regarding Woofer, instead of backing off or adding him to list (which again shows biased opinion), you keep talking rudely to me. One more thing, I didn't allegedly accused this whole article to be biased - just the decision of Woofer's inclusion. Please read the replies regarding Woofer carefully and the sources too. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 07:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
No one was talking rudely to you in the first place. You exhibited bad faith when you used "bias" to describe things here and I simply to responded to it, since that came out of nowhere and your comment wasn't civil. Please learn to respect your fellow editors. Also, please find better references. The article is already tagged for needing better references and you don't need to add a fansite (aiptcomics.com) as a reference. Thank you. Hotwiki (talk) 10:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
As I said on my own talk page as well that I didn't intentially exhibited this bad faith you're referring and again I apologize for that. But Aiptcomics is not a fansite, it does podcasts, reviews and has its own news column too. Regardless of it as you said "The article is already tagged for needing better references" in the last reply, add Woofer in the list on the basis of first reference provided which is reliable. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 10:49, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
I have added Woofer on the basis of references and above talk. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
No. There is no consensus. Also, please read MOS:COLHEAD. If you're planning to drastically change the entire article, you should probably discuss it first to avoid issues. Also, Swords of X handbook isn't the main reference of the article for you to pinpoint it in the article. Hotwiki (talk) 01:22, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
And the word "formerly" doesn't need to be in italics. Hotwiki (talk) 01:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also, may I add, the current format of the article is fine as it is and doesn't need to be changed, unless new members are introduced. The drastic changes you made, made the article looked like a mess in my opinion and doesn't really comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Hotwiki (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I worked in my sandbox before uploading here but I can do it again one by one with valid reason so that it might not be "drastic change". First you tell me only those are members who are in the X of Swords Handbook page which can be clearly seen above and now you say X of Sword Handbook is not main reference? (Do you know how you sound?) Anyways that was why I added in note saying "they are based on". Regarding Woofer, according Wikipedia:Guide to addressing bias, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view to it doesn't need consensus if you have valid references and that decision was biased which is shown as you didn't answered for five days an when I added Woofer, you immediately removed him. YOU get a point regarding Woofer, previous talk has decided, then references are not valid, now not reaching consensus?. and in doing so, you removed all the work I have done but I will do it again for the sake of the page's information because in my opinion it is absolute mess too but I will do it based on neutral ground and "removing all". And do tell me how to report someone? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 03:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
You know what you have done too much questionable changes, it is impossible to enumerate them all and I don't have all the time to explain them to you one by one. My suggestion is leave the article as it is right now. Thank you. Hotwiki (talk) 04:14, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I want to contribute to this page and you can't stop a Wikipedian in contributing pages of their choices in positively. Maybe you have created this page or maybe you have formatted the whole page that is now but that doesn't mean you own this page. As I also said I will again change those things on neutral basis (with perfect explanation) but still you keep reverting my edits. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 04:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I'm not stopping you to contribute in Wikipedia. I just don't find the recent changes in this article helpful, thats why they were reverted. Hotwiki (talk) 04:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also you need to stop changing the issue in which the original five joined as members of the X-Men. What you did was misinformation. Hotwiki (talk) 04:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay I can do that but that means I also have to add "(flashback story)" in Neal Shaara's issue. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 04:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
An why Professor X is still has joining issue as X-Men #1? Sure he had joined when he formed X-Men? If we are prioritizing flashbacks can you tell me which issue of flashback he had created X-Men? Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 04:40, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Like I said before, leave the article as it is. Plenty of information in the article have existed for more than ten years and any misinformation would have been fixed/brought up a long time ago. You seem to be having a lot of questions about a topic (X-Men members) you seem unfamiliar with, based from your past comments. Please don't use this Wikipedia article as an experiment while diving into the X-Men lore. Hotwiki (talk) 04:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I know about X-Men and asking question doesn't mean that I don't know about it. I am arguing "if that is then why not that?" (Talk page is for that only) I am going to leave the information as it is but I will make some addition to improve this page. Please read the explanations clearly before removing all of it because that is what many do they read explanation before reverting. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 05:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
No. I've seen every change you've made in this article. Every single edit I reverted, didn't improve the article in the first place. From misinformation, to not following Manual of Style guidelines, to using unreliable sources. Hotwiki (talk) 05:37, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Do my last edits look like I am not following Manual of Style guidelines? I have only added reliable sources so please mentioned those references here so others can see and confirm it too. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 06:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
No. You just brought back everything that were already reverted and you just added them all back in? So stop adding Woofer. He's not a member and this was already discussed in the past. Hotwiki (talk) 07:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also may I add, you are overlinking too much. If you were already reverted previously. How about consider it was reverted for a good reason instead of reverting it back after an hour? You keep adding "formerly" when it was already removed more than once. So please don't restore this to your version again seen in your sandbox. You also keep removing table captions. Can you please give this article a rest with the drastic changes and wait for an actual consensus in the talk page? Hotwiki (talk) 07:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Give me the damn valid reasons why they can't be. And remove them with valid reason. Why did you removed "formerly"? I gave the page reason why I added them. See List of Avengers members first. I have just replace a.k.a. with formerly. You still didn't mentioned the references which are not valid. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Again wait for a consensus. Also stop adding Dr. as part of the fictional name. You don't need to add months in the issue where a specific character joined the team. You don't need to add multiple references (that was just copied by the way) to a single information. I'm asking you to take a seat back in the article and give this article a rest from drastically changing the article. Hotwiki (talk) 08:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also the reason why the word "formerly" shouldn't be included because members come and go and some change their codename from time to time. This is merely a list of members, and you don't need to inform readers which is their current codename. These X-Men members have their separate Wikipedia articles, save it there. Hotwiki (talk) 08:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also please stop removing "recruits by decades". If I remember correctly, this was added by an article reviewer and there's no need to remove it. Hotwiki (talk) 08:18, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also no need to mention which reality certain characters were from (Rachel Summers, Cable)... unless different versions of a character joined the team (like 616 Logan / Old Man Logan). Hotwiki (talk) 08:22, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Also, those months next to those years. Are you sure those are referenced well. Why not just mention the year, like this article always used to? Also specifically t stating the number of reality/multiverse (for example,Earth-21923) is borderline Fancruft. The table already has Wikipedia links for each character, save the additional information there instead of mentioning it here. Hotwiki (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I don't know if you are trying to be rude but let me tell you one thing, I spend one whole day to get "these months" by searching each issues individully. So I am confirm about it and you can also check (if you have time). Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
But why mention the month? Isn't the year of their membership enough along with the comic book they joined as a member. Hotwiki (talk) 08:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I have seen months included in many lists as you can see for example List of Avengers members. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Thats a different article. And this article doesn't need to emulate that article. I'm asking you why the year/comic book issue of membership aren't enough? Hotwiki (talk) 08:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I can ask you the same? Why not? But to answer you question I would say because many members here are not chronologically order so those months help to arrange those members of same year in perfect order. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 09:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Members here are chronologically order by the year they joined the team. If you have a problem by the current chronological order of the article, you should have discussed this first at the talk page, so we can review/discuss your proposed changes. I already told to discuss things in the first place when it comes to drastic changes (that includes adding months to every members) to avoid issues. If you are sure, that those months are well referenced and accurate, you can add the months back since we already discussed this change. Hotwiki (talk) 09:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
No. I would like to wait and propose my proposal in this talk page and invited major editors of this page to that discussion just for consensus as it seems now that only two of are active on this discussion. Let me create that new discussion as it is my proposal and as well I need some time to type it all. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 09:22, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki, I request you to add the months and rearrange the members chronologically (only if you have time) because I'm leaving this article and talk page. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 08:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
I forgot to mention. "Dr." isn't an name, its a title. There's a difference. Hence it shouldn't be under the name column. So don'tadd "Dr." next to Henry Philip "Hank" McCoy and Charles Francis Xavier in the "name" column.Hotwiki (talk) 08:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
How can I add as everything is removed by you. There is not a single edit done by me that improves this page? I can't belive it. Ringardiumleviossa (talk) 09:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
That is false, I didn't remove the references you added that you forgot to update the access-date.[11] When you removed the Comic Vine (Gaemspot) reference today, I didn't revert that as well. Hotwiki (talk) 09:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Wood, Robert (August 17, 2023). "X-Men's New Member Was Designed to Give Them an Infinite-Power Attack". Screen Rant. Retrieved February 3, 2024.
  2. ^ Hassan, Chris (August 14, 2023). "X-Men Monday #215 – Gerry Duggan Talks 'X-Men' at FAN EXPO Boston 2023". AIPT Comics. Retrieved February 3, 2024.

X-Men in training and Unofficial teams

Latest comment: 4 months ago10 comments2 people in discussion

I am suggesting these changes because an enormous amount of changes were done in this article on the basis Handbooks and those are canon so it can not be wrong.
I was reading the previous talk pages in the archive and got to learn about the involvement of handbooks in this article. Many sub-team, splinter teams and unofficial teams were removed on the basis of handbooks. I also agree with that because there is no official definition of X-Men except the handbooks but there is this one thing. In X of Swords Handbook, it was stated Cyclops' team of X-Men was not officially sanctioned X-Men and was up to debate. I would like to add that above mentioned Unofficial X-Men section again with Cyclops team and trainees in this page as it was clearly mentioned in the Handbook.
Recently I removed joining comics from some X-Men in trainees because they didn't have sources and were unreferenced. I would also like to tell that if anyone can find a reference of them becoming trainees at which comic issue, feel free to add or correct that issue to their row. Till then I have to say that I will have to add the exact comics mentioned in X of Swords Handbook because that is the only evidence we got here at least for now. Sewnbegun (talk) 13:31, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Those information you removed, have been in the article for more than 10 years - will be restored as I plan to post scans of those comic book issues in this article, so stay tuned! Hotwiki (talk) 14:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
There were many information in this page that were here for years but were removed due to handbooks and I am just leaning to those handbooks right now. I can also provide scans of the current comic book members which were removed from being bolded but you asked for reference. Even you admitted of reading new comics in Talk:List of X-Men members#Current members of the X-Men, still you wanted references. These article don't need post scans. This article needs additional sources. Sewnbegun (talk) 15:07, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
First of all, the lack of reference was discussed on February 15, 2024. The removal for unreferenced current members of the X-Men was on February 20, 2024. Today is February 28, 2024. If you have scans in the first place to provide as a reference, no one is stopping you to post them here. And Yes, I read the comics, but that's not an excuse not to post references, especially NO comic book issues were mentioned in the article for the list of current X-Men members, that readers can look up for verification. Also may I remind you, you removed information in this article for being unreferenced and you directly told me don't restore them until references are provided. Practice what you preach. Hotwiki (talk) 15:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Oh God, I do not have a personal agenda against you! Are you reading above discussion? I said I am TOTALLY FINE WITH INFOBOX THING. Sewnbegun (talk) 15:28, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
May I add, you removed the comic book issue in which Loa/Trance joined as a trainee of the X-Men and it had nothing to do with the handbook, which I reverted. Then you told me (via your ip address) to provide a reference, which I did today. Hotwiki (talk) 15:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
First of all I did not told you anything. I made an edit with valid point and explained it why I made that edit (not explained to you but to other user who might me editing too). And again my IP address has only one edit and that too by mistake which I am done justifying. You did not provided references. Sewnbegun (talk) 15:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Read the edit summary of that edit[12] which you made with your IP address. If those weren't your words then who typed those? You admitted in your talk page[13], it was you who made that edit/revert anyway. And as seen today in this talk page, I have added a reference for the comic book issue in which Trance and Loa joined as a X-Men trainee, since you told me directly to add a reference. Hotwiki (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
I didn't mentioned you directly!!!! Whatever I type in the edit summary is for all other editors which also includes you but it wasn't about you trust me, it was like in general instruction. Sewnbegun (talk) 16:23, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Also @Hotwiki, I think we should include Cyclop's team of X-Men in Unofficial section as it was also mentioned in this [14] that they were not officially sanctioned X-Men and their membership can be up to debate. I can find some references with time but add them right now on the basis of consensus and talk page. Sewnbegun (talk) 17:15, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Trance and Loa

Latest comment: 4 months ago18 comments2 people in discussion

Here are the comic book scans for certain X-Men trainees, joining as a trainee of the X-Men - uploaded from my own IMGUR account.

Hotwiki (talk) 14:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

These scans does not show that they joined as trainees as it does in handbook and we also don't have sources yet. Sewnbegun (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
The handbook scan[19] posted in this talkpage, doesn't include the comic book issue - in which characters joined as a X-Men trainee. I have provided in this talk page, comic book pages in which Trance and Loa are seen with the X-Men as a trainee and that should be enough. Hotwiki (talk) 15:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
If you have a reference of your own that would disqualify these scans as a reference. Then okay. But until then, those pictures I uploaded, should be enough for Loa/Trance. Hotwiki (talk) 15:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
You don't own this page. We even didn't reach consensus and you didn't wait for another editor besides us to share opinion before you added the misinformation like you wanted. I am not the one who need references buddy! So don't talk to me like that. Though I have better scan for you - [[20]]. I get that you are actively editing to this article and that is good. We can add this because this clearly mention which comic they joined until we can have solid reference. Sewnbegun (talk) 16:24, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
How is that a better scan? Loa and Trance aren't even shown or mentioned in that scan to begin with, to disqualify the pictures I posted. Hotwiki (talk) 16:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
@Hotwiki see again because I made an link correction edit. Sewnbegun (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
And how will those who didn't upload the file will know for sure that scan is from Official Handbook of Marvel Universe A to Z #13? If that is legit, then you had that scan in the first place yet when you removed the comic book issue for Loa/Trance, you didn't mention Official Handbook of Marvel Universe A to Z #13 and didn't replace it with information based from that handbook? Hotwiki (talk) 16:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Why you dwell on the past? Firstly, I removed them on the basis of unreferenced and I was going to add those information from the handbook once there was consensus in this discussion which as the main topic and you can again read above. This is legit. I can't prove it to others unless they themselves have this handbook to confirm. Sewnbegun (talk) 16:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
You should have brought up the handbook first before you started deleting things, anyway thanks for the scans! Hotwiki (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Welcome, You forget I have just joined Wikipedia and one of the first thing I ask at Teahouse was of sources that's why I was adding sources to this article and was trying to edit with sources or consensus. Sewnbegun (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
That was my opinion. If you told me in the beginning you have a scan with comic book issues in the first place, when you removed the information about Loa/Trance several days ago, we wouldn't have this long discussion about references/removing information. Instead, you told me to find a reference and when I did, it was only then, you posted these scans. Hotwiki (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
I did mentioned about handbook but then I had to find references as you can see here in Talk:List of X-Men members#Boom-Boom, Madison Jeffries, Doctor Nemesis, Woofer. After I couldn't find any I removed them and came here to discuss. That's it. Thankfully we reached consensus. Sewnbegun (talk) 17:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
While remaining others except Stepford Cuckoos can be find here [[21]] Sewnbegun (talk) 16:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
So I looked those scans and compare them to this article. How do you explain that Choir (Irina Clayton) isn't mentioned yet Cipher was in New X-Men in year 2002? Should we remove Choir (Irina Clayton) based from that scan? Hotwiki (talk) 16:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Choir is mentioned in the 3rd Row of 3rd Column. Sewnbegun (talk) 17:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Saw it. I'm trusting you that the scan from Official Handbook of Marvel Universe A to Z #13 is legit. I'm not going to add the comic book issues for the other characters as I'm too tired now, so if you don't mind, do the rest for the other trainees. Hotwiki (talk) 17:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
I can do it no problem. I just hope that maybe I can find some references for others. Sewnbegun (talk) 17:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
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