Talk:Helmuth Nyborg

Outdated Refrence

The link to the Article "G for Galskab" is outdated since the article has been moved, but I do not how know to change it. The link to its new location is http://politiken.dk/debat/ledere/article81143.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.74.217.62 (talk) 08:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

A martyr to political correctness

It looks like the first draft of this article was POV, taking a stand opposed to Professor Nyborg--stating for example that the heritability of intelligence is a "theory" (it's an empirical fact, emerging from every study that tested for it), and branding his "defenders" as "controversial intelligence researchers" (all people who research intelligence are controversial, since the empirical facts they have uncovered fly in the face of what most of us want to believe). Some of the later material, on how Nyborg's methodology compares favorably to his peers, strikes me as much more NPOV. Nyborg is truly a martyr to political correctness, and IMHO a NPOV article would emphasize that. I intend to make a few changes. Any thoughts? --Anthon.Eff 22:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Distance between nipples

2/3 of the children Helmuth Nyborg followed through the years left. Especially around puberty. The research did not only consist of testing IQ regularly but also photographing the children nude from 3 different views, taking blodsamples for hormones, and measuring the distance between the girls nipples and measuring the size of the boys testicles. So far I haven't seen any data public about the IQ of the girls choosing to leave the research project, neither the boys. Should this information be included in the profile? --Toften (talk) 13:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it would be original research to introduce your own criticisms of Nyborg's work. Try to find and cite a published paper that mentions these possible sources of sample selection bias.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 16:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You, "Anton.Eff", have stated that "Nyborg is truly a martyr to political correctness", so in your mind there obviously is no doubt. However the argument for his suspension was that he was deemed guilty of scientific misconduct in relation to the academic documentation. Nyborg himself tells about the photographing [1]: Others, amongst those his boss, have told about the nipple-measurement, and adding new children to compensate for the loss in newspaper articles I'm sure you must be aware of.--Toften (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I could be wrong about the martyr stuff. In general, though, I don't think it's a good idea for politicians to tell scientists how to do science. I'm not wrong about original research--you'll need to find a reputable source for any criticisms of his work, avoiding your own synthesis. This is especially sensitive because Nyborg is a living person. Please let me know if I can be of any help. mvh--Anthon.Eff (talk) 17:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Not one politician has had a role in this case, as far as I now. In Denmark it is just bad taste to talk about gender differences as well as about discrimination. I am presently trying to get a link to a report published in 2006 on the quality of the Nyborg-research, but I am not sure it is public. Behind the report are three appointed experts from academia within the research field.--Toften (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have found said report but I can't find where it gives the alternative numbers for IQ difference. The old reference is dead so I am compelled to remove the sentence. If anyone can find the numbers in The official report then we can add it again. I browsed through the report but I haven't got the necessary statistical prowess to extract the numbers. eruantalon (talk) 16:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

which paper?

The section "Aarhus University reaction" starts with the sentence "Even though the paper had passed peer review.." could someone please clarify which paper this is referring to? It's not clear to the casual reader. Thanks. WotherspoonSmith (talk) 10:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Intelligence Citations Bibliography for Articles Related to IQ Testing

Maybe these references will help clean up some of the questions about the article. You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in these issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. It will be extremely helpful for articles on human intelligence to edit them according to the Wikipedia standards for reliable sources for medicine-related articles, as it is important to get these issues as well verified as possible. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 21:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Now is a good time to dig into the sources and see if the article can be improved by referring to more and better sources. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Is writer on IQ the same person as the Olympic medalist?

Let's check sources. There has been a recent insertion into the article of information about an Olympic medalist. Is he really the same person as the subject of this article? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:06, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I've done a little digging in danish sources - he did apparently win A bronze medal in the Olympic games in Rome in 1960 IN 4 X 500 metres kayak.[2]·Maunus·ƛ· 00:21, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

English-language source on recent academic controversy

Several recent edits to this article have used Danish-language publications as sources, and now there is an English-language source Citing “scientific dishonesty,” Danish board calls for retraction of controversial paper on decline of Western civilization from a blog group-edited by experienced science journalists that reports on the latest developments. As the case is resolved, there should be some English-language sources for further edits to this article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 22:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

This seems to have some information. http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com/2015/04/nyborg-un-watsoned.html 2003:5B:4B42:1360:F4EE:7EC7:4C75:7325 (talk) 11:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

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New decision by danish court

maybe this should be incorporated into the article: http://retractionwatch.com/2016/03/30/denmark-court-clears-controversial-psychologist-of-misconduct-charges/ :

A Danish court has determined that psychologist Helmuth Nyborg did not commit misconduct in a controversial 2011 paper which predicted an influx of immigrants into Denmark would lower the population’s average IQ by the latter part of this century.

Best --hroest 17:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I have adopted the article accordingly as now the decision by the DCSD was overturned by a court and thus should not figure as prominently any more. See also the following "Editors note" in the journal: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886915000446 where a committee basically clears him of all formal charges. Please note that the only thing they investigated was whether Nyborg stole data / did not acknowledge a collaborator but the decision does not say anything about the validity of the research itself. I think we should also add sources that question the methodology and the conclusions drawn from the data. Simply because the research was formally correct does not mean that it is correct in its conclusions (and the other way as well). Best regards --hroest 18:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I added a cite from Retraction Watch on the verdict, and mentioned the 200000kr judgement. I also pulled a non-notable section attempting to smear Nyborg for attending a conference which some allegedly bad people also attended, and changed some wording to be more accurate and less accusatory. The bottom of the lede paragraph where it says that the university administrations' censure was politically motivated is supported by the existing (now translated) reference. The other reference in that section had no body text at all, besides being in Danish and behind a paywall, so I deleted it. Feel free to add it back if you can find a link with text, preferably in or translated into English. One danish reference was replaced with a Google translations, and this should be done for all the other Danish references for them to be appropriate in English-language WP.

It is inappropriate to revert any changes if other means such as actual editing would result in a more accurate, well-sourced article. This happens far too often. Don't.Enon (talk) 23:14, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Edits to the 2011 controversy section.

I did a few edits to the 2011 controversy section.

Removed false claim that HN was found guilty twice by UVVU. He was found not guilty the first time.

Right wing group. This is a nationalist group, so be precise: Den Danske Forening which translates to The Danish Union/Orgnization/Coalition (the word lacks a direct English equivalent).

Added information about the journal verdict, namely about the composition of the researchers in the ad hoc committee since these are themselves prominent enough to have Wiki pages (3/4).

--Deleet (talk) 13:24, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

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Far-right

This edit added noteworthy information supported by reliable sources and should not have been reverted.[3][4][5] The IP that did so claimed that The www.information.dk source does not call Nyborg far-right, it only says that the far right has made use of Nyborg's research, and that Nyborg finds this unfortunate. Also on English Wikipedia, English language sources are preferred and This content is poorly sourced and probably violates WP:BLP; please don't edit war to re-add it, but:

• Stram Kurs is unambiguously described as far-right in reliable sources, including the two added, and we have a source saying that Nyborg stood for election for them, so "far-right activist" in the lead is justified
• English sources are only preferred when available and equal quality to non-English sources, which is not the case here
• It is not a violation of the BLP policy to include noteworthy, reliably-sourced information in a biography of a public figure (such as someone who stands for political office), even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it (WP:WELLKNOWN)

Unless there are objections, I'll restore it. Courtesy ping @Throast:. – Joe (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if Stram Kurs is reliably described as a far-right party, the disputed content still appears to be original synthesis. This is a situation where source (A) says that Nyborg stood as a candidate for Stram Kurs, and source (B) says that Stram Kurs is a far-right political party. But for Wikipedia to call a living person a far-right activist, it seems it that should require a source directly describing him as one. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 11:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Absolute nonsense. Is there any doubt that Nyborg stood for Stram Kurs? No. Is there any doubt that Stram Kurs is far right? No. If someone stands for election on a far right political platform, are they far right? Yes. You could maybe debate 'activist' but I can't think of a better description for a political candidate that wasn't elected. – Joe (talk) 11:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

How about changing the lead to say, Helmuth Sørensen Nyborg (born 5 January 1937) is a Danish psychologist, former athlete, and politician who has stood as a candidate for the far-right party Stram Kurs? If the label "far right" must be included, that is a closer reflection of what the sources say. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 11:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me. It also doesn't have to be in the first sentence, just not excluded. – Joe (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I've adding the proposed wording at the end of the first paragraph. Although this wording is tolerable to me, I am still uncomfortable with using the label "far-right" in the absence of any sources that use it while discussing Nyborg. So if any others share my concerns about original synthesis I encourage them to comment here. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 14:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree with IPv6. Deducing from these two sources alone that Nyborg can be universally described as a "far-right politician" is too big of a leap in my opinion, especially considering that we're talking about (potentially controversial) political affiliations of living people. Also, not a big fan of that essay since obviousness can be subjective. I've noticed that SYNTH is one of these policies that frequently gets brushed aside because editors find it inconvenient. The phrasing that's been agreed upon is a much better solution imo. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 15:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

According to this source he stood in the East Jutland (Folketing constituency) in the 2019 general election. He polled 1.51%. Several sources make clear that Nyborg supports the far-right policies of Stram Kurs including the article referenced on page but it seems 2A02 removed a second source documenting Nyborg's links to neo-Nazis and white nationalists including Greg Johnson; I will quote a relevant extract from the article:

Met with top people from the Alt-Right movement

In September 2018, Helmuth Nyborg appeared at the Scandza Forum in Copenhagen, where several international top people from the far-right milieu participated and gave presentations. A YouTube video showed that Helmuth Nyborg informed the assembly about his knowledge . Several people associated with the American Alt-Right movement, a so-called white nationalist branch of the extreme right, were also present at the gathering. During the Scandza Forum, there was a speech from the American Greg Johnson, a well-known anti-Semite and supporter of white nationalism. Greg Johnson publishes his views on the website counter-currents.com, where he is managing editor. Here he argues, among other things, that the chief responsible for the extermination of Jews during the Second World War, Adolf Hitler, simply acted in "self-defence" against the aggressions of the Jews.

From the same article, which mentions Nyborg attended another far-right conference in 2011:

When Helmuth Nyborg appeared at the Scandza Forum, it was not the first time he spoke to representatives from the most extreme part of the right wing. In 2011, he spoke at a two-day seminar organized by the Danish Society for Free Historical Research. Today, the company is history, but among other things, it set out to deny the Holocaust.

It seems rather odd none of this has been previously mentioned on Nyborg's Wikipedia article. It is well documented he was a candidate for a far-right party in 2019 and he occasionally attends conferences with white nationalists and neo-Nazis yet until today none of this was mentioned or even discussed. Instead the article came across as whitewashed and just said he was a scientist (albeit with controversial views on IQ) who did some Olympic rowing. No mention he is a far-right ideologue who speaks alongside neo-Nazis and stood for the most extreme right wing party in Denmark. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Another source [6] "In 2017 he spoke to the white nationalist American Renaissance conference". So Nyborg has also attended American Renaissance events. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Yet another source: Nyborg spoke at a far-right Traditional Britain Group conference in 2019. I also found a source on his attendance to the 2011 conference by the SPLC - there is a photo with Hyborg sitting next to ex-KKK leader David Duke... an extract from the article:

A private seminar on religion and politics entitled “Revolt Against Civilization” brought together some of the leading lights of U.S. and European white nationalism and anti-Semitism. Hosted by Christian Lindtner (far right) of the Danish Society for Historical Research, the seminar was broadcast in America by Connecticut-based Voice of Reason (VOR) Radio, which specializes in racist materials. Those attending included (from left) Tomislav Sunic, a Croatian author and frequent guest speaker at American extremist events; Alexander Jacob, whose academic work focuses on a return to “European ideals” to combat Jewish intellectualism; David Duke, the U.S. neo-Nazi and former Klan leader who won a majority of the white vote in his 1991 bid to become Louisiana’s governor; Helmuth Nyborg, a Danish psychology professor; and Kevin MacDonald, a psychology professor at California State University, Long Beach, who wrote a trilogy of books that attack Jews and are revered by neo-Nazis. VOR identified all participants as “doctors,” and they may all be. But Duke “earned” his doctorate at an anti-Semitic Ukrainian institution that’s been described as a “diploma mill” by the State Department. Despite his own heated attacks on Martin Luther King Jr. as a plagiarist, Duke is known for having cribbed large portions of a book from MacDonald’s trilogy, including 232 footnotes that exactly or nearly match MacDonald’s.

51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Ps, I have found at least once source describing Nyborg as "radical right". Seems accurate considering his repeated attendance at far-right gatherings and his controversial writings on eugenics and immigration:

Last May, British journalist and conservative commentator Toby Young attended what he called a “secretive” conference on intelligence and genetics, the London Conference on Intelligence. Those associated with the conference include Richard Lynn, a white nationalist who argued for a self-conscious effort to “phase out inferior cultures,” and Helmuth Nyborg, a Danish radical right figure who has lamented the effect of immigration from the Middle East on Denmark’s gene pool.

51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Some final stuff I found:

• Nyborg wrote a few articles in 2012-2014 for the white nationalist site VDARE. source
• Arktos the far-right publisher recently published A Tribute to Helmuth Nyborg (paperback) on 7 Jun. 2024. source. Among articles in this volume are by white supremacists including Emil Kirkegaard. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

51.6.193.169, I think you've just given away who you are. (The geolocation is another clue.) It's been a few years since you last evaded your ban here, but I'm familiar with your antics at RationalWiki. I'm waiting for you to call Emil Kirkegaard a "child-rape activist" next. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 17:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect. I work as a researcher for The Guardian. A lot of my research is on far-right figures and I hardly edit this website. I am guessing you are another banned sock-puppet associated with the OpenPsych journal. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 17:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For the record, there are plenty of mainstream sources calling Kirkegaard a "white supremacist" which also document his abhorrent views on child pornography. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

All of these sources can be used in the article body. I'm not sure if they are enough to support the "far-right activist" descriptor in the lead sentence. MOS:ROLEBIO says that the lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described by reliable sources. IP, what do you say about this edit that IPv6 made earlier? Isn't that a good compromise? Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 20:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that Nyborg is attending another major far-right conference and there is expected to be media coverage about this. I have no issue with what has been put there for now. A wait and see position would be best going forwards until the new sourcing has been published. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 23:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't imagine that would change things very much. What we could do is add something like, Nyborg has frequently attended/spoken at far-right conferences and stood as a candidate for the far-right party Stram Kurs to the first paragraph. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 09:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

There are several sources I found that say he is an advocate of scientific racism [7], [8], [9], this is more than enough to put into the lead. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Now, remember that Wikipedia articles should be written from the bottom up, i.e. things that aren't already covered in the article body shouldn't appear in the lead section. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, see MOS:LEAD. Please make sure that everything you want to include in the lead is covered proportionally in the body. Also, I don't appreciate you editing the lead while this issue is still under active discussion. You should wait until there is a consensus. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 09:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)