Talk:2023–2024 Dutch cabinet formation

Background

Hi @Jdcooper, I removed part of my own text both here and on nlwiki, because the background is a bit long and some information isn't really necessary to understand the formation. I believe that should be the focus of the background. Not everything that is sourced, is relevant. (I realised afterwards that I did not restore all internal links, sorry for that). Dajasj (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Dajasj: Gotcha, I see it now! Thanks for the note. I removed one bit of unnecessary detail, but I don't think the rest of the sentence does any harm, it's useful for casual observers of Dutch politics (like myself :) Jdcooper (talk) 10:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

But in hindsight, does it help to know that PvdA-GL have merged, given that they hardly participated in this formation? Or that BBB slowly lost its lead (except that they have many seats in the Senate, but that's noted below). I can imagine more context might be useful, but I don't think this is the right context? Dajasj (talk) 06:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

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2023–2024 Dutch cabinet formation → 2023–2024 cabinet formation in the Netherlands – Similar to Cabinet of the Netherlands and Category:Cabinet formation in the Netherlands, it makes sense to rename from the ambigious "Dutch" to "the Netherlands". Downside is that other countries also use the current structure, see Category:Cabinet formation, but could of course be renamed in the future. Dajasj (talk) 22:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Small update: I found Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics), which recommends the change. Dajasj (talk) 06:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

• strong support. new title is more specific — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.3.91 (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
• Note: @Dajasj, I came here to suggest the exact change made, but I wanted to note that @Dekimasu changed the proposed target from 2023-2024 cabinet formation in the Netherlands to 2023–2024 cabinet formation in the Netherlands. This was simply a change from a hyphen to an en-dash, based on MOS:DATERANGE, which is what the original proposed target should have been. Just noting it for transparency. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOTBROKENWP:AINTBROKE, WP:TITLECON, and WP:WRONGFORUM. gidonb (talk) 01:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Gidonb, thanks for the vote. Could you elaborate what would be the appropriate venue? And how do you view the fact that right now this page is inconsistent with other Dutch politics pages? And finally, I might misunderstand, but how is Not broken relevant here? Dajasj (talk) 05:42, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Allow me to return to my order, as it wasn't random. So NOTBROKEN should have been AINTBROKE, my bad, also corrected above. The AINTBROKE corresponds to your line it makes sense to rename from the ambigious "Dutch". So while Dutch means both "of the Netherlands" and the language, since cabinet is a political body, the only intuitive meaning here is "of the Netherlands". (Plus, regarding the languages, in titles we disambiguate that at the other end, e.g. by spelling out Dutch-language, Danish-language, etc.) In other words, there is nothing wrong with the current name. The suggested name isn't wrong either, it's just a bit more cumbersome way of saying exactly the same thing. So already this shouldn't move. Regarding TITLECON, you correctly pointed out in the intro that the move you suggest is entirely inconsistent with the name of formations in other countries ("Downside is that other countries also use the current structure"). You forgot to point out that it is also entirely inconsistent with the title used for all other cabinet formations of the Netherlands. To the extent possible, we really want titles to be internally and externally consistent. As for wrong forum: this should have ben set out to all formations of all countries in order to create consistent outcomes for all countries plus internal consistency. This was at the end to focus on the content and consistency of your suggestion as first and second on a scale of importance. I object to this proposal on all counts. gidonb (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I understand your points, although I disagree. In particular because of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics). Regarding the fact that this affects multipe Dutch cabinet formations (most written by me), I figured proposing it here would make more sense because by far more people read this page so would be aware of a proposed change. But I assumed that consensus for change here, would also be consensus for changing all those Dutch pages. But I guess I could add the proposal to all formations, if more people support it here. Dajasj (talk) 10:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not needed. The name is fine. gidonb (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. While WP:NCCST favors spelling out the country name (despite naming many exceptions), I do not see a compelling case to move the many articles required (to retain consistency) in this case to avoid ambiguity. As Gidonb argues, its political subject removes ambiguity that this is about the ethnicity or language. I don't believe one option is superior, hence my weak vote. - Tristan Surtel (talk) 15:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per the aforementioned arguments, as well as per NCWWW (following the [when] [where] [what] structure) and CONCISE (the title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects). "2023–2024 Dutch cabinet formation" is already precise enough, but it is more concise than the proposed title. Also, the current title matches the style used for most other government formations elsewhere (see Category:Cabinet formation). Impru20^talk 09:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I see no reason why this should be necessary. Renerpho (talk) 00:45, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.