Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 June 14

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June 14

The Our Father

In the process of creating an a priori constructed language of which I have been constructing for several years, I have now come to the point in which I wish to translate the Our Father into it.

However, in order to do so correctly, I need to ask for some clarification of a few lines (because I am translating it from the English).

Lines in bold I need clarification on:

Our Father who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, On Earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread, And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.

Specifically:

Is "Thy Kingdom come" intended to mean "Thy kingdom (which is) to come", or "May thy Kingdom come"?

Similarly is "Thy will be done" intended to mean "May thy will be done"?

Is the "as" in "As we forgive those who trespass against us" supposed to mean "because" or "just as we/like we do"? In other words, is the line intended to mean: "Due to the fact that we forgive those who trespass against us" or is the line intended to mean "Just as we too forgive those who trespass against us"?

Finally is the "but" in the last line supposed to mean "but, rather/but, instead" or is it intended to mean something else?

Thanks ahead of time for the clarification! Tharthan (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

"Is "Thy Kingdom come" intended to mean "Thy kingdom (which is) to come", or "May thy Kingdom come"?" The latter.

"is "Thy will be done" intended to mean "May thy will be done"?" Yes

"Is the "as" in "As we forgive those who trespass against us" supposed to mean "because" or "just as we/like we do"? In other words, is the line intended to mean: "Due to the fact that we forgive those who trespass against us" or is the line intended to mean "Just as we too forgive those who trespass against us"?" The latter.

"Finally is the "but" in the last line supposed to mean "but, rather/but, instead" or is it intended to mean something else? " Yes, that's what it means. - Lindert (talk) 16:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

If you don't know Biblical Greek (as most of us don't), my advice would be to use multiple English versions of Matthew 6:9-13. Using multiple modern English translations may give you a better idea of what Jesus meant. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

See Lord's Prayer for a detailed analysis of the text. Tevildo (talk) 16:58, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on each of the five verses of Matthew that make up the Lord's Prayer, and the articles summarize discussion by scholars about the detailed meanings of parts of the prayer. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:01, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

"Thy Kingdom come" is subjunctive, if that helps (presumably if you are making a constructed language you are familiar with the subjunctive, since it's so much fun). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

You might do better to use a newer (if less familiar) translation as your starting point; I found "Our Heavenly Father, may your name be honored; May your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day the bread we need, Forgive us what we owe to you, as we have also forgiven those who owe anything to us. Keep us clear of temptation, and save us from evil." from The Lord's Prayer in English Alansplodge (talk) 18:31, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

That brings out a point that the OP needs to bear in mind: the translation of "debts/trespasses". "Sins", which isn't an accurate translation of the Greek (but which may be a better translation of the presumed original Aramaic), is used in Common Worship, and the ASB80 and Series 3 before it; a lot will depend on whether the OP is translating a specific English version of the prayer, translating the relevant Gospel passages, or putting together a version of the prayer in their conlang ab initio. Tevildo (talk) 19:08, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

@Lindert Thanks much!

@Tevildo I am basing it on the English version as given by the Catholic church, as that is the version that I grew up with. The reason I asked for clarification is that I am not translating the prayer word-for-word (though I am keeping it close) because my constructed language logically does not run on English grammar and if I tried translating word for word anyways it would not make sense as there is not a 1-1 correspondence between English words and the words in my constructed language. As such, whilst I am having the translation be strongly based on the general Catholic version of the prayer, I still need to have it make sense in my constructed language. Hence why I needed the clarification. Tharthan (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

"Charlie side"

Near the end of this, at about 1:30, there is a reference to "the Charlie side of his vehicle". I would guess it is a reference to "the passenger side" of his vehicle. Is that what it means, and is there a known origin? Bus stop (talk) 18:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

According to this, it's the rear, as Alpha is the front, and Beta the left side (next going clockwise). Rojomoke (talk) 19:32, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. It did not occur to me that "Charlie" might represent the letter "c". Bus stop (talk) 19:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Per NATO phonetic alphabet, of course. -- ToE 02:33, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Which would be alpha, bravo, Charlie, delta, etc. To get around language differences, maybe? Left, right, front, back are English, while A, B, C, D are pretty common across Europe. And Charlie side would be like saying "your 6", meaning 6:00, meaning behind you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Too bad they weren't using the US version. Then the passenger side would be "dog side", and that is in fact where a dog would probably be. --Trovatore (talk) 04:24, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The clock analogy is nice. I had to visualize holding a circular wall clock in my hands, with my left hand at the 9 and my right hand at the 3. "Twelve o'clock" would represent "ahead of me" or "in front of me", and "six o'clock" would represent "behind me". Bus stop (talk) 18:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The expression "I've got your 6", equivalent to "I've got your back", has become more and mor visible in common usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:01, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Related "tail end charlie" at Wikitionary: [1] Rmhermen (talk) 13:35, 15 June 2015 (UTC)