Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jurassic Park (film)
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 18:43, 15 May 2007.
There was no consensus either way the last time this was nominated. There were many objections, but I think most of them had been addressed, so I'm going to restart it. (old nom) Raul654 01:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - My concerns were addressed and satisfied in the previous FAC, as it is now, it gets my full support. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 01:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment—I believe the only remaining problem is that the copy-edit needs to be finished. — Deckiller 14:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There's been a lot of copyediting courtesy of Bignole and Firsfron, and I've tried my hand. None of the objectors ever bothered to list their prose problems anyway. Alientraveller 15:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I am a terrible copyeditor; the only things I fixed were technical problems (like the plural forms of various dinosaur genera), and I'm possibly a poor judge of what is well-written prose. Please, for the sake of your FAC, do not rely on me to tighten up prose! Also, for the record, many of the listed prose problems weren't even from the correct article, which must have been incredibly frustrating for the nominator. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok pal, I'm just thankful that you corrected dinosaur information. Alientraveller 17:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support the article is in a good shape, well cited, written and illustrated, though there are things in "Release" that I usually see in separate sections (such as home video and other medias). igordebraga ≠ 17:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that was done because there wasn't that much information to warrant subsections for the individual releases. At least, that's the way it appears. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 17:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This article seems to be in top condition, and I believe that this article would make a good adition to the FA colection here. Chickyfuzz14(user talk) 17:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose for now. Like I wrote in the first discussion, the "Reaction" section is US/UK-centric as it only mentions reviews from those two countries. Therefore it is not as "comprehensive" as it could be. A Wikipedia article is supposed to cover the topic from a global standpoint and should not give any country-specific aspects any priority. I understand the problem that the main editor of the article only speaks English, but I'm sure there is some newspaper article or another source giving an survey of how Jurassic Park was reviewed around the world waiting to be found. Like I also wrote in that first FAC discussion, I'll be doing my part to try to find it in the next couple of days, but until such information is included the article just doesn't satisfy the FA criteria. I certainly hope this can be corrected. Besides this aspect, everything seems to match the FA criteria (although I'm no good at copyediting and can't really judge the prose), which I would like to commend its author for, but I won't support until this issue is taken care of. --Carabinieri 22:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if that's a very fair comment; I haven't seen any fiction FAs with reviews in other languages. — Deckiller 22:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Could you provide some FA film articles that do this, because I haven't seen any that provide this "global" review that you are requesting. The first problem with this is that how do you distinguish what is more "foreign" that it would satisfy your opposition? We don't include release dates for films in countries that are not primarily english speaking, unless there is some notable reason for doing so (e.g. if a film series has never been released in a particular country, but for the third film it is). Second, how do you propose we translate these reviews? When does it stop? Are we to provide a review for every country a film was released in? Spider-Man 3 was released in 107 countries (the most ever), I think that may create a problem in a criticism section. Even more so, we are supposed to follow style guidelines, which tell us to use Rotten Tomatoes, and professional/well known critics; last time I checked, RT doesn't have anyone listed abroad in its "Cream of the Crop" list of most well known critics. How are to distinguish who is "well known" and most "professional" in a country whose language we cannot even translate? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Just to add my voice to the chorus: This seems like an unfair requirement. Jurassic Park was an American film created for an American audience, so certainly the reaction of American critics is more germane than that of German or French or Indian or Sudanese critics. — Brian (talk) 22:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're putting words in my mouth. I never even indicated that the article was supposed "to provide a review for every country a film was released in". And Jurassic Park was not "created for an American audience". According to Box Office Mojo 61% of its gross came from abroad, so the reception in these countries is just as important. I called for the article to give an overview of how the film was received - from a global standpoint. I don't believe that's an unfair requiremnt, but rather an FA level. Like I pointed out in my comment, I'm sure English-language sources have analyzed the reception in non-English-speaking countries, so knowledge of a foreign language wouldn't be required in order to write about this reception. I'm aware of the fact that most FA's currently do not reach this standard, but "two wrongs don't make a right", let's get it right here and give a true global overview before passing this. one.--Carabinieri 23:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Most don't? I can't think of any that do, at least not off the top of my head. The best you could probably hope for is that someone mentioned if it was generally well received in another country. Most news articles don't go into depth about foreign reviews, just general reaction. I've seen the ones for Spider-Man 3, when it was released in Japan, and they don't generally include actual critic names. Also, I didn't say you said that, I said that what you are asking is vague. I asked you what you thought was "global" enough for inclusion. What you are asking is for someone to find news about foreign reviews. And what if no one wrote anything about the foreign reception beyond how much money it made? Are you saying you can never support an article that couldn't possibly satisfy your request? A request that actually doesn't follow the rest of the FA articles for films. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, because if it was possible to be done I think it can only help the article. But, I believe that the article doesn't hinder itself by not having these "global" reviews. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, most news articles don't go into depth about the reception abroad, that's why it's important to find the ones that do. No said finding the appropriate sources was going to be that easy. I highly doubt that the reception outside the English-speaking world hasn't been the topic of an English-language news article or some other piece of writing. I can't claim an article that has a major section which doesn't completely cover its topic meets FA criteria and therefore cannot support, even if there is plenty of precedent for such articles being passed.--Carabinieri 21:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Most don't? I can't think of any that do, at least not off the top of my head. The best you could probably hope for is that someone mentioned if it was generally well received in another country. Most news articles don't go into depth about foreign reviews, just general reaction. I've seen the ones for Spider-Man 3, when it was released in Japan, and they don't generally include actual critic names. Also, I didn't say you said that, I said that what you are asking is vague. I asked you what you thought was "global" enough for inclusion. What you are asking is for someone to find news about foreign reviews. And what if no one wrote anything about the foreign reception beyond how much money it made? Are you saying you can never support an article that couldn't possibly satisfy your request? A request that actually doesn't follow the rest of the FA articles for films. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done, because if it was possible to be done I think it can only help the article. But, I believe that the article doesn't hinder itself by not having these "global" reviews. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 23:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're putting words in my mouth. I never even indicated that the article was supposed "to provide a review for every country a film was released in". And Jurassic Park was not "created for an American audience". According to Box Office Mojo 61% of its gross came from abroad, so the reception in these countries is just as important. I called for the article to give an overview of how the film was received - from a global standpoint. I don't believe that's an unfair requiremnt, but rather an FA level. Like I pointed out in my comment, I'm sure English-language sources have analyzed the reception in non-English-speaking countries, so knowledge of a foreign language wouldn't be required in order to write about this reception. I'm aware of the fact that most FA's currently do not reach this standard, but "two wrongs don't make a right", let's get it right here and give a true global overview before passing this. one.--Carabinieri 23:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if that's a very fair comment; I haven't seen any fiction FAs with reviews in other languages. — Deckiller 22:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I find that sad that you would hold something that has yet to be done by any other article (i don't see any FA articles up for review on that requirement of yours), and not even brought up on the WikiProject films style guidelines themselves. There is such a thing as "not existing", even on the internet. If it does exist, you still run the risk of the source you finding being reliable itself. Most importantly, we do not know the professional status of foreign (non-english speaking) critics. They don't show up on Rotten Tomatoes (which is the site that the WP Films guidelines says to use), or other sites. If you believe that they exist, then please help the article out. You don't have to, but apparently others have tried and failed. But, that's your opinion about the situation, and I don't believe that it will hinder the article (speaking of the lack of foreign reviews, not about your personal opinion as everyone's opinion is valued IMO). BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking as someone who has put together a comprehensive article on a recent film (The Devil Wears Prada, which will be split sometime soon per its tag), I wholeheartedly agree that this is a ridiculous request for a film article. At least one on the English Wikipedia. The international film press rarely covers foreign-language critical reaction unless it's significantly different from what gets said in the English-speaking world (the only instance where it should be covered in a Wikipedia film article). I agree with the globalization sentiment but consider the implications: good film articles inevitably tend to become overly long (as mine did). We would probably need to split off daughter articles for rather crufty lists of (probably badly-translated) quotes.
IMO, foreign-language criticism should be included if there's some national connection to the film in question. For example, The Departed discusses Hong Kong critics' reactions to the film since it was a remake of Infernal Affairs. I would also add as an aside that, when overseas, I haven't seen critical reaction used to sell the film the way it is in the English-speaking world (i.e., no quotes on posters).
Really, this discussion should be moved to WT:FILM. An FA nom of an article that was merely trying to follow its project criteria is not the place to force changes to those standards. Daniel Case 02:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What I am demanding isn't anything new and shouldn't be controversial at all. I'm just asking a potential FA to represent a worldwide view! Currently there are several reviews mentioned in the article and it struck my that all but one were from American media, the other one being from the United Kingdom, this is what is generally known as systematic bias. If I were really obtrusive and fussy, I could slap that section with a {{Globalize/Eng}} template. I'm not expecting anyone to look through foreign-language newspapers and translate movie reviews, I don't think it's necessary to quote them directly at all. I do, however, feel that since 61% of the audience of the film seems to be from outside the US (and I'm pretty sure that's not all UK), the coverage the reaction from the critics of these countries gets should be proportionate to this. I can honestly care less about the WP:FILM standards. This is FAC, not a page of some project, so I'm just trying to apply FA and general Wikipedia standards - along with some common sense.--Carabinieri 22:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, you seem to be alone in your standards. Secondly, part of FA criteria is to meet your personal WikiProject's guidelines. The fact that you don't care about what WP:FILM says is irrelevant, because this article IS a film article, and thus must meet those requirements as well. Regardless, show us some "global" reviews. Show us it can be easily accomplished short of having to translate a review. Or, show where Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias applies to film articles (American films at that), and how it proposes we accomplish this the "unbias" you claim the article lacks. I would think that I would be seeing a lot of FA film articles up for review, with that template added to them. This seems more like something you should bring to the WikiProject Film community. Most aritles always try and follow previous FAs, because they know that a community of people agreed that those articles were great articles. You're asking this article to do something entirely new, instead of taking it to the WP:FILM, so that they can address the concerns and then make appropriate actions to all FA film articles (if necessary). As no two articles are exactly alike, how you handle each can be different as well. I've checked the "Countering" Project, and the only thing it says do is look for news websites in other countries that have an english version, and the sites they mention are Canadian and UK. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What I am demanding isn't anything new and shouldn't be controversial at all. I'm just asking a potential FA to represent a worldwide view! Currently there are several reviews mentioned in the article and it struck my that all but one were from American media, the other one being from the United Kingdom, this is what is generally known as systematic bias. If I were really obtrusive and fussy, I could slap that section with a {{Globalize/Eng}} template. I'm not expecting anyone to look through foreign-language newspapers and translate movie reviews, I don't think it's necessary to quote them directly at all. I do, however, feel that since 61% of the audience of the film seems to be from outside the US (and I'm pretty sure that's not all UK), the coverage the reaction from the critics of these countries gets should be proportionate to this. I can honestly care less about the WP:FILM standards. This is FAC, not a page of some project, so I'm just trying to apply FA and general Wikipedia standards - along with some common sense.--Carabinieri 22:42, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Speaking as someone who has put together a comprehensive article on a recent film (The Devil Wears Prada, which will be split sometime soon per its tag), I wholeheartedly agree that this is a ridiculous request for a film article. At least one on the English Wikipedia. The international film press rarely covers foreign-language critical reaction unless it's significantly different from what gets said in the English-speaking world (the only instance where it should be covered in a Wikipedia film article). I agree with the globalization sentiment but consider the implications: good film articles inevitably tend to become overly long (as mine did). We would probably need to split off daughter articles for rather crufty lists of (probably badly-translated) quotes.
- Comments as I go...
- Are "Gerald R. Molen", "B. D. Wong" and "Dean Cundey" really that important to include in the character listings? These characters had very minor roles.
- "trimmed much of the exposition via Spielberg's idea of a cartoon" I can't figure out what this means exactly... can this be made more clear?
- Done. Alientraveller 15:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The "Dinosaurs on screen" is great, a wonderful idea to cover a film in an encyclopedic way by explaining some of the technical/scientific information in the movie and relating it to Wikipedia articles for further reading. But it seems a bit awkward in between the related "production" and "reception" sections, perhaps the dinosaurs section should be put closer to the plot and character sections for pacing?
- I think "Dinosaurs on screen" serves to supplement production: the most important thing about this film, was that it was the most realistic (at the time) depiction of dinosaurs to date. Alientraveller 15:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- But really, this is a great film article that just needs some minor polishing here and there. Weak support because it still needs some tweaking, which I'm sure will occur eventually. --W.marsh 14:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I think the article meets all criteria. In addition I dont see a need to expand the reviews section.LordHarris 15:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I don't edit Jurassic Park much but I think this article needs some copyediting and removal of redundancies in accordance to the FA critera, but I am going to support this. I will copyedit this ASAP. Sjones23 19:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support It is well written, well sourced, and is comprehensive and stable - • The Giant Puffin • 14:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Well-written, pleasant reading. Pasi 12:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- SUPPORT! Outstanding article, excellent research, detailed, informative. Everything I would like to see on the front page of Wikipedia. MrPrada 16:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. I did some copy-editing to fix punctuation issues with quotes, but otherwise, the article is in terrific shape. I've reviewed the featured article criteria, and Jurassic Park, I'm happy to say, meets all of them. Definitely a fine article of a fine film! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.