Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Genghis Khan/archive2

Genghis Khan

Genghis Khan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 28 June 2024, 02:26 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Genghis Khan
• Featured article candidates/Genghis Khan/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Genghis Khan/archive2
• Featured article candidates/Genghis Khanarchive1

Nominator(s): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

...I don't think he needs an introduction, do you?

Encouraged by Aza24, I began work on this in November 2022. It received a GA review par excellence from Borsoka late last year, and was subsequently improved at peer review by Tim riley, Gog the Mild, and UndercoverClassicist. I thank all of you for your help.

If successful, this will be the first VA3 biography promoted to FA since Cleopatra six years ago; it will also be used in the WikiCup. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Tim O'D

Exciting. Marker for now: ping me if I've not done a first round by next Monday. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:49, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Read down to Defeating rivals and no real nitpicks so far. More over the next week. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:03, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments from PMC

I love seeing obscure historical figures at FAC. I will try to get to this within a week; the full review will likely take me a bit as this is a chonky one! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• I'm not sure about the placement of "it later became the largest contiguous empire in history". It feels a bit of whiplash to go from "he ruled, after he died, he ruled"
  • I've removed a couple of phrases, I think it flows better now, and is better focused on the man.
• "Reduced to near-poverty, they managed to survive" - could tighten this to "they survived near-poverty" (it's the "managed to" that feels most unnecessary)
• "although Temüjin killed his half-brother Behter to secure his position" - what position did he secure? weren't they abandoned?
  • also, the "although" isn't really working here. Usually you'd use an "although" to say something that contrasts the first thing, but killing your brother to help yourself isn't really in contrast to white-knuckle survival
• Addressing the above together: I've tightened the bit about poverty, removed the although, and specified that the killing was to secure the familial position.
• "he began to gain followers" - do we know why or how? I know we need to be concise in the lead but it'd be nice to have context, even if it's just "His forceful personality" or "His ability to kill thirty dudes without breaking a sweat"
• It's a bit jarring to discover that he had a wife at the same time as we're discovering she got kidnapped
  • Too many events, too little lead space. I've noted his charismatic personality and that they were newlyweds when she got kidnapped, to explain why she hasn't been mentioned earlier.
• "possibly spending" - "and may have spent" sounds better to me, but I'm not gonna die on this hill
  • I like it.
• "as a threat, and launched" channeling the comma master Sammi Brie here, you can remove this comma
• "he then transformed" - you can ditch "then"
  • Done all.
• RIP Khwarazmian Empire 1219, you guys blew it harder than a truck full of trumpets
• I have no further gripes until the last part of the last paragraph. It feels odd to mention everybody else's feelings about him before the Mongolians.
  • I like it as a personal touch: it means the lead ends on a stable, simple note.
• Also, "his legacy has undergone considerable reassessment in recent Western scholarship" doesn't actually tell us what his legacy was reassessed from or to
  • Rephrased. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Name & title / Sources

• "In addition to "Genghis", introduced into English during the 18th century based on a misreading of Persian sources" - is there any more detail about this? Who introduced the error, why sources were misread, why it became the popular usage vs anything else?
• I'm not ordinarily an MOS wonk, but the format for the translated titles in Sources appears to be inconsistent with Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Titles_of_works#Translations.
• is "received text" a general technical term? I'm not familiar with it and when I google it, it appears to apply to Biblical text
• "The most important Persian source" according to who?

Early life

• Who's Paul Pelliot
• "1162 remains the most accepted date" why? best evidence, most agreement? If it's sheer numbers, you may want to reword to something like "1162 is the date accepted by most historians" or something
• "but this has been placed" unclear what this refers to in this context. Does "this" mean Genghis' birthplace or the true location of Delüün Boldog?
• "The most prominent is that of a blood clot he clutched in his hand as he was born" - could maybe simplify to "The most prominent is that at birth, he clutched a blood clot in his hand"
• "However, the Tatars recognised their old enemy, and slipped poison" rm second comma
• Since Hö'elün is so prominent in the adolescence subsection, perhaps an image of her? I won't insist

Rise to power - early campaigns

A number of questions here and in subsequent sections may be a result of my own ignorance of Mongolian history and/or my sometimes goldfish-esque memory. If the answer to anything I've asked is "you've misunderstood something really basic" or "it's the thing I mentioned two paragraphs ago", please say so and that's on me.

• "Temüjin then chose" - lose "then"
• So Genghis Khan regifted the sable cloak?
• I guess here again is the question of how/why Genghis "began to build a following" - was he just incredibly charismatic, or was he getting up to impressive deeds that made people want to follow him at so young an age?
• This is a nitpick, but "Temüjin and Jamukha camped together for a year and a half, during which, according to the Secret History, they reforged their anda pact, even sleeping together under one blanket." feels very comma-heavy. Any way it could be revised?
• Also, why were they camping together? Was there another campaign going (the previous para says "the campaign was soon won" so I assume this takes places after that campaign) or were they just boys being boys?
• I'm not sure the difference between anda and nokor is sufficiently clear for it to be impactful that Jamukha might have become a nokor. Can this be clarified a little?
• "ostensibly on account of a cryptic remark made by Jamukha on the subject of camping" any more about this? Was it related to camping generally or like... their boys trip specifically
• So Borte is Lady MacBething Genghis Khan, here?
• "forty-one leaders joined Temüjin" along the lines of the camping together question, was there a campaign going? Else what are they joining him for?
• Temujin acclaimed as khan - solely because of the successful campaign against the Merkits?
• I love getting to include a sentence like "this guy lied and said they won, but it's obvious he was lying after the fact, because of the obvious lies"
• "Temüjin was able to subdue the disobedient Jurkin tribe" as a matter of chronology I might introduce this factoid earlier when discussing the Tatar campaign. This might be a personal quirk but to me it always feels a little odd to insert things in the format of "by the way, this happened earlier and here's what he did as a result".
• "dissatisfied tribes including the Onggirat, the Tayichiud, and the Tatars, swore to break" rm last comma I think
• "existing social norms" "existing" seems redundant? if they didn't exist, they wouldn't be norms, right?
• "but though the ensuing battle still lasted three days" I'm not sure about the "still lasted" phrasing here. It feels like the implication is that it's unusual the Kereit held out that long despite being caught unawares - was it unusual?

Early reign

• Why engage in extensive discussion of the title Genghis Khan here when you have a whole section for that above? Feel like it distracts from the history
• It's not deeply important, but why "white bone" and "black bone" as titles?
• I agree with Kusma below that linking "military decimal system" in this way is odd, as the "decimal" article doesn't really explain a military decimal system. I might unlink it entirely
• "even after the division of the Mongol Empire" when
• "whose father Münglig had previously been allowed to marry Hö'elün" this is confusing. When did this happen?
• "When Temüge, Genghis's youngest brother, attempted to intervene he too was publicly shamed." by Genghis again, I assume?
• It feels mildly confusing to go from Borte warning Genghis who still reveres the shaman to suddenly Genghis allowing Temuge to kill the guy. I'm normally the "cut the fat" poster child but I think some insulation here might help the abruptness
• "...allowing Temüge to have Kokechu killed, he usurped the shaman's position as the Mongols' highest spiritual authority." Genghis assumed the shaman's position, or Temuge did by killing Kokechu?
• Perhaps this is just my browser size and use of V10 instead of V22, but the image on the left breaks the "Campaign against the Jin" subheader ever so lightly, shoving it off to the right. add {{clear}} maybe?
• Really not a lot to gripe about here. I think I said something like this in the Shigi Qutuqu FAC, but your prose is really top-notch. I appreciate your ability (and willingness!) to summarize things in a way that gets the important ideas across but doesn't get bogged down in detail

Later reign

• "might be a potential threat" feels redundant, I think one or the other is enough
• "Muhammad had however grown" - the placement of the "however" feels odd. "Muhammad, however, had grown" seems more typical (but - not dying on the hill of it)
• I do think that same sentence is a bit overlong and comma-heavy, and might split it somewhere
• "Peter Golden" who's this
• Poor Muhammad II, history's poster child for fucking around and finding out. "Bewildered by the speed of the Mongol conquests". Buddy. Dude. My guy.
• The {{convert}} template here wants to have the adjective parameter on to correct the grammar
• I know he's a minor figure, but it feels odd that Shigi Qutuqu is only first mentioned here despite being Mr Genghis' adopted son.
• "and losing decisively" - maybe "after losing decisively" or "after a decisive loss"?
• " he was compelled to swim across the Indus river into India" this is kind of hilarious but - compelled by whom? By his own decision, to escape with his life? Or by the victorious Mongols as a punishment?
• "the omens were additionally unfavourable" this is mostly curiosity, but any idea what omens?
• Again this may be my browser/V10 usage, but the image captioned "Depiction of Jalal al-Din crossing the Indus River..." unattractively bumps the subheader and the hatnote on the left

Family / Death and aftermath / Character

Combining these sections under one as I don't have very many comments for them. Generally I find them to be well-written, thorough summaries of difficult, interesting aspects (especially Legacy, which could likely have its own article)

• The placement of the family section between his later reign and his death puzzles me. It feels jarring, since we've been proceeding along chronologically and suddenly we're interrupting that to lay out his family tree and succession.
• It also feels odd that the family section hatnotes Descent from Genghis Khan but does not discuss it whatsoever
• Context for Marco Polo and Carpini? I know Marco Polo is pretty famous, but he's not necessarily universally famous, and Carpini is much less so.
• The footnote about Juzjani and Zhao Hong could work in-text, although I won't insist if you prefer it as a note
• "showed good judgement in choosing his heir" - this feels like a subjective opinion expressed in wikivoice. Can we give some context to it? Even "modern historians agree" would be fine

Legacy

• Left-aligned image under "Legacy" bumps the subheader again
• "the empire started to split" - I might give some context as to when. 5 years after his death? 30? 100?
• "in which he will return" - perhaps better phrased as "which says he will return"
• Are there any images of the banknotes or postage stamps? Any "pop culture"-y images of Genghis?
• I don't find the Mongolia section to be overdue or over-filled in the least, but I think the "Elsewhere" section could be expanded. The opinions of Russia and the entire Muslim world are each concluded in one sentence. There's really no more to be said?
• Further, it feels odd to hatnote "Genghis Khan in popular culture" but not actually discuss portrayals of him in pop culture
• I would detach the sentence about Russia and the sentence about the Muslim world from the paragraphs they are attached to, and make them into a separate paragraph

Okay! We've reached the end of the rainbow at last. This is an incredible piece of work and you should be proud of it. Take your time responding, I know I've left you with a lot. Cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Image review

Image review

Image review: File:YuanEmperorAlbumGenghisPortrait.jpg - Clearly public domain. Good to go. File:Secret history.jpg - Public domain. File:Jame' al-Tavarikh (Compendium of Chronicles) manuscript by Rashid al-Din Fazlullah, Iran, early 15th century AD, ink, watercolour, and gold on paper - Aga Khan Museum - Toronto, Canada - DSC06735.jpg - Own work upload, book itself in public domain. File:OnonRiver.jpg - Own work upload. File:Burkhan Khaldun mount3.jpg - CC-BY-SA 2.0 upload from Flickr. File:Djengiz Khân et Toghril Ong Khan.jpeg - Public domain. File:Serven Khaalga inscription.jpg - Hmm. The inscription is public domain, but the image lacks author information, and comes from a 2009 work. Just because the image contains inscriptions of an ancient law code, I'm not so sure it falls under the Mongolian copyright exemption listed. That's reasonable. Commented out while I try to find alternatives. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC) File:Mongol Empire c.1207.png Made and uploaded by a Wikipedia user, good. File:Temüjin proclaimed as Genghis Khan in 1206 Jami' al-tawarikh manuscript.jpg - Public domain. File:Mongol Invasion of China.png Made and uploaded by a Wikipedia user. File:Bataille entre mongols & chinois (1211).jpeg - Public domain. File:Chingiz Khan in battle - Collection of epic poems (1397-1398), f.49v - BL Or. 2780.jpg - Public domain. File:Siège de Beijing (1213-1214).jpeg - Public domain. File:Genghis Khan empire-switch.svg - Translation of an own-work-upload map uploaded by a Wikipedia user, good. File:Jalal al-Din Khwarazm-Shah crossing the rapid Indus river, escaping Chinggis Khan and his army.jpg - Public domain. File:YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg - Public domain. File:Genghis Khan with sons (Marco Polo, 1400s).jpg - Public domain. File:Emperoryuandinastycollage.jpg - Compilation of public domain images. File:モンゴル政府宮殿あおり2023.jpg - Own-work upload by a Wikipedia user. Licensing-side, everything seems good except that Serven Khaalga inscription (which is, IMO, the weakest image used in the article anyhow). The images seem high quality, relevant to the subject, and I can't think of anything that needs more illustration. However, there is some formatting concerns: Sandwiching issues near the beginning of the "Early life" section: I would put both the images of books there on the right side (it almost always is the best place to put them anyhow) and move them up a little bit. The Temüjin and Toghrul could be argued to go either per MOS:IMAGELOC, but when it doubt, right-align it. File:Temüjin proclaimed as Genghis Khan in 1206 Jami' al-tawarikh manuscript.jpg should also be right-aligned. Both maps should be right-aligned. On the flipside, the portraits in the Bust Portraits of Yuan Dynasty Emperors are facing right, so should be left-aligned as to face towards the text. I've moved the sources images up to prevent sandwiching, and switched the alignment of certain images. I think the remaining images look better on the left. The discussions here make it clear that MOS:IMAGELOC should not be a blanket prohibition against left-aligned images. To my knowledge, there are no actual accessibility concerns with left-aligned images, other than "look a little to the right to find the next words". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Many images have proper alt-text, but the infobox image, the three images detailing the Mongol-Jin conflict, the crossing the Indus one, the portrait compilation, and the Government Palace are missing it. Added.

Looks like just a couple things to fix. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:16, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• Replies above, Generalissima. Thanks for your time. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Fair justification (no pun intended) on the left-aligned images. Alt-text, sandwiching, and the potentially mis-licensed image resolved. Seems good to go — Support on image review. Good work as always. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Comment by Buidhe

At the article's present length, I am unable to support it. In terms of concrete suggestions on how to reduce length while maintaining comprehensiveness, I would suggest reducing the length of Genghis_Khan#Mongolia by half and moving that content to another more appropriate article. Seems rather UNDUE to write twice as much about how he is perceived in Mongolia compared to the rest of the world. (t · c) buidhe 02:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think 9.6K words is fine for such an article. Cleopatra has 4,000 more words. Plus Taylor Swift—a non-historical figure—has almost exactly the same amount of words. 750h+ 05:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I also wonder why it would be undue for the article to heavily discuss how Genghis Khan, probably the most famous Mongolian to ever walk on planet earth, is perceived in Mongolia. It would be odder to focus more on his perception everywhere else, I should think. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:44, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

What this passage suggests is that his impact everywhere else, and attention paid to him, combined of the entire rest of the world is half that for Mongolia, which is not plausible to me. The section also goes into substantial detail that may not be necessary for the reader to understand the subject as a historical figure. (t · c) buidhe 05:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

9.6K is easily under the recommended 10k size. Since there is room, this argument would be much more persuasive if reversed: there should be more on Genghis Khan's impact on the non-Mongol world. As the single most important person in Mongolia history, it seems essential that the reader understands how his reception has fundamentally changed over time in his native country. I can't see trimming resulting in anything but oversimplification. Aza24 (talk) 06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I too don't think the article too long. I read it twice at Peer Review and found it no hardship, and have just given it a third perusal for FAC, with a fourth and final one to come. It is fully manageable, and is a lot shorter than some existing FAs. I don't know enough about the topic to say whether this or that section should be expanded or trimmed, but as a whole I find the article entirely satisfying. Tim riley talk 06:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment buidhe. Which part of the FA criteria, or which editing guidelines, prohibit articles of this length? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

The same problem unfortunately took place at the FAC for the reign of Cleopatra. 750h+ 11:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

That article should not have been promoted. It does not meet the FA criteria imv and would benefit from a more aggressive approach to improve conciseness by moving details to sub-articles, which would improve readability while preserving encyclopedic information for those readers seeking additional detail. (t · c) buidhe 13:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it's an issue with #4, length, and #1d because of excessive detail that is better covered in sub-articles and incorrect relative size of sections. Even if you think the overall length of the article is OK, it does not mean that all content that is currently in the article belongs. (t · c) buidhe 13:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Barring further evidence, I will take objections to the length as subjective—I personally feel that it is fine, and I am glad to see that others agree with me above.

On whether the Mongolia section is too long I would point out that Genghis has been the most prominent figure in Mongolian culture, only rivalled by the Buddha, for most of the past 500 years. He has been alternately a deity, a legendary figure, a national hero, a national villain, and a founding father. Please note also that this article is about Genghis Khan personally, not the Mongol Empire, and that the man's personal impact on Mongolia has been far more consequential than his impact on the rest of the world, much of which is hard to distinguish from the impact of his successors. Genghis himself never went further West than modern Afghanistan, he only campaigned in Northern China, etc. Yes, his name is remembered much further afield—but only his name.

As Aza says above, I would be far more open to a conversation on expanding the "Elsewhere" subsection. But saying that the "Mongolia" subsection should be trimmed, is for me like protesting that Joseph Stalin#Legacy is overwhelmingly focused on the Soviet Union. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

If the prose size was north of 10k, I'd agree for trimming, but I think the legacy section is fine. A Legacy of Genghis Khan article might be very interesting, but I feel it's already pretty well summarized here, especially for a figure so central to the foundation of Mongolia (and whose empire had not yet reached the Eurasia-spanning heights upon his death) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a very key point here. As an individual, Genghis's importance to the outside world is heavily dwarfed by the Mongolian empire. Much of the empire's advances and effects occurred after his death, giving him an indirect (albeit essential one) connection to them. Aza24 (talk) 18:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Although I think prose size is not a problem, I tend to agree with suggestions about a more concise "Legacy and historical assessment" section, and the creation of a separate article about Genghis's legacy. My concern is that for the time being the section implies that he is first of all a Mongolian national hero, although he was one of the most important rulers and military leaders in universal history. Borsoka (talk) 01:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi AirshipJungleman29, I appreciate that you took up this monumental task. My comments:

• "later became the largest contiguous empire": This might be pedantic, but could we specify the year? The link says 1270 or 1309 was the year when the Mongol Empire reached its peak area.
  • No—"borders" (if they can even be called such) fluctuated significantly, along with questions of subdivision autonomy and internal cohesion.
• "in the Mongolian steppe": "on" would be better instead of "in"?
  • Perhaps—changed.
• "Ibn al-Athir's Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (lit.)": reword to "the Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (lit.) by Ibn Al-Athir" to avoid SEAOFBLUE?
  • There is an " 's " in between the links; if that is insufficient I will do as you suggest.
• Was Hoelun pledged to Kokechu or Munglig? Consider rewording this sentence? Also do excuse my not using diacritics.
  • Rephrased those sentences.
• Below the Defeating rivals section, could we add a See also template linking to Mongol conquest of Central Asia and Mongol conquest of Siberia? These articles have a lot of detail on the subjugation of rival tribes which readers might want to read.
  • I don't think that would be a good idea for three reasons: a) the "Defeating rivals" section would definitely be the wrong place for that, b) those articles contain information on various campaigns over multiple years, thus not fitting into any one section, and c) I regard those articles as WP:SYNTHesised messes, as can be seen from this discussion.
• Why did Genghis dislike Wanyan Yongji? Do any sources or historians speak or speculate on this?
  • No, sorry.
• Translate or explain chevauchee in one or two words per NOFORCELINK?
  • I don't believe this falls under NOFORCELINK any more than mountain passes or siege engineers in the same paragraph, but if it does, I'll just replace the word.
• Do we know which cities in the Gansu Corridor were granted clemency, or at least their number against the total?
  • Ganzhou and Xiliangfu are specifically mentioned, but I think that level of detail is more suited for the dedicated campaign article, when I get around to it.
• Link to Siege of Gurganj?
  • Already linked.
• Why do we have nothing on the tumens? We have details on the minqads and their composite decimals but not the tumens and how Genghis reorganised them in a way which differed from the Magyars.
  • The minqan was the fundamental unit of society; the tümen was merely a military designation of many (not always ten) minqad. In any case, they were much less important under Genghis than subsequently—many minqad were not even assigned to a tümen, and the sources do not describe them in detail, showing their lack of real use in this period. I don't believe there is anything in the major sources about differentiation from the Magyars—that seems odd, considering the decimal system had been widely used in eastern military organisation.
• In the Later Reign section, could we have a new subsection titled Other campaigns, and include details on the early invasions of India and the Kievan Rus, respectively the raids on Lahore and Multan by Dorbei and Bala and the Battle of the Kalka River, both of which were approved by Genghis?
  • Jebe and Subutai's expedition is mentioned in the third paragraph of the Khwarazmian Empire section; Dorbei's pursuit of Jalal al-Din, unsuccessful and no more than 42 days in length, has not received much attention in RS, so I think an entire subsection would be undue.
• In the family or character section, could we mention that Genghis endeavoured greatly to educate his willing children, as mentioned in the article on Shigi Qutuqu?
  • "Endeavoured greatly" is not supported by the sources, which only state that he appointed a captured scribe as a tutor.
• In the family section, could we mention Batu Khan as the son of Jochi, since we have already done so for Mongke and Kublai as the sons of Tolui? Also, could we add Hulegu as another son of Tolui? Otherwise we could be seen as leaning towards the Yuan and Chagatais and passing over the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate.
  • Hulegu is already mentioned, as part of the later imperial line, while no son of Chagatai is. I don't see a reason to mention Batu, nor how the article can be construed as "leaning towards the Yuan and passing over the Ilkhanate" when the section does not mention the former but does the latter.
• "killing nokod who wavered in their loyalties": do we have any more details on this, the number of people so killed or the underlying circumstances? I think at least the number of such deaths should be mentioned.
  • The history of the Mongol Empire is not friendly to numbers. Incidents covered in this article include Kokechu, who attempted to take power, and almost Genghis' brother Qasar, who he always distrusted; not mentioned are followers who acclaimed him as khan in 1187 but subsequently turned against him.
• Since we have the Family section between the Later reign and Death sections, could we remind readers that the siege we mention was around Zhongxing?
  • Good call.
• What was Altan Khan's religion before converting to Tibetan Buddhism? Was it Tengrism, Taoism, Confucianism, Islam, Christianity? Whichever one it was, consider mentioning?
  • Probably shamanism, but it's unimportant to this article.
• "the martial bodhisattva Vajrapani": consider rewording to "Vajrapani, the martial bodhisattva" to avoid SEAOFBLUE?
  • Done
• Translate glasnost and peretroika per NOFORCELINK?
  • No, they're well-used terms in English.
• In the Legacy section, I am inclined to partially agree with the assessment by Buidhe that we focus too much on Mongolia, although I don't think that section should be trimmed but instead maintained as is. I believe we have ignored Genghis' legacy in Northwest, South and Southeast Asia. I believe we could add a paragraph on how Genghis is viewed in Korea, Japan and Southeast Asia. Also, we mention Timur only once, but it is important to note that Timur, his Timurid dynasty and the Mughals claimed legitimacy primarily due to their claimed descent from Genghis. We should consider mentioning that.
  • I am open to expanding the "Elsewhere" section—the Timur link is a good one, and I will muse on that. Seeing as Genghis never reached Korea, and none of his successors reached south/southeast Asia or Japan, I feel confident in saying that there is likely very little in high-quality scholarship on those topics, but I am open to being corrected.
• In the biblio, to maintain consistency, you will have to link to: The International History Review, Kim Hodong, Marie Favereau, Peter Golden, The Cambridge History of Inner Asia, George A. Lane, Hachette Books, Frank McLynn, Jack Weatherford.
  • Good catches all.
• Change the website for Craig 2017 from www.bbc.com to just BBC?
  • Done.
• Why have we used Hung 1951 here, when in the article on Shigi Qutuqu we preferred to use newer, updated sources?
  • At Shigi Qutuqu, the relevant parts of Hung 1951 discussed the authorship of the Secret History, which today, nearly seventy-five years later, is a debate that is still raging—there is no point citing seventy-five year old sources for a current debate. By contrast, in this article it is used to cite a definite fact which is unlikely to change, and which Hung 1951 remains the most in-depth discussion of—the matter of the Secret History's transmission.

That's all from me for now. I may or may not add more comments depending on whether I find anything to add. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 08:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks for an often thought-provoking set of comments Matarisvan; I'll get back to you on the Timur thing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley

I was one of the peer reviewers last year; my fairly extensive comments then were thoroughly dealt with. After rereading for FAC I have nothing to add, and I am happy to support promotion to FA. This warts-and-all presentation of the man seems to me admirably balanced, the historical context is clearly explained, the sourcing is formidable and generally up to date, the illustrations are splendid and the prose highly readable. I could do without some of the slightly unnecessary blue links – age of majority, clemency, command structure, defection, discipline, fortifications, funeral procession, royal court and wrestling for instance – but I don't press the point. The article meets all the FA criteria in my view. – Tim riley talk 13:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Tim, much appreciated; I'll have a look at those blue links. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

MSIncccc

• Marker for now. Ping me if I have not left any comments by Friday. Regards MSincccc (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Lead

• Born between 1155 and 1167 and given the name Temüjin, he was the eldest child of Yesugei,... Using "eldest" because it is the correct term in British English for the firstborn child, providing greater clarity and precision.
• I've never heard that before—can I have a source?
  • In British English, "eldest" is preferred over "oldest" when referring to the firstborn child in a family, which aligns with the formal tone required for a featured article. Source - Oxford English Dictionary (OED): "Eldest" is specifically used for people, particularly within a family context, while "oldest" can refer to people or things in a general sense. The OED definition clarifies this usage distinction【56†source】.
    • That seems fair, I'll adjust the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• When Temüjin was eight, his father died and his family was abandoned by their tribe. Using "their" in place of "its".
  • Tim riley pointed out at the PR that this changes the subject from singular to plural mid-sentence.
• Reduced to poverty, they managed to survive, although Temüjin killed his half-brother Behter to secure his position. Dropped "near" before "poverty".
  • Why?
• As he grew to manhood, he gained followers and formed alliances with two prominent steppe leaders, Jamukha and Toghrul; they collaborated to retrieve Temüjin's kidnapped wife, Börte. You could also retain "worked together" but the rest of the suggested version is a definite improvement.
  • Partially done.
• Temüjin retreated, then regrouped and overpowered Toghrul; after defeating the Naiman tribe and executing Jamukha, he was left as the sole ruler on the Mongolian steppe. ...he was left as the sole ruler on the Mongolian steppe. could be replaced with ...he became the sole ruler of the Mongolian steppe. for a more concise phrase.
  • That wouldn't work with "after" at the beginning of the phrase, so I am inclined against the change.
• In 1209 he led a large-scale raid into the neighbouring Western Xia, who agreed to Mongol terms the following year. and In 1227 Genghis died while subduing the rebellious Western Xia;... Dropped the comma as it follows the British convention of not placing a comma after introductory phrases.
  • Never heard that before either—can I have a source?
    • The same convention has been followed in the articles of British politicians, businessmen and members of the British royal family. According to The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation, the comma after introductory phrases is often considered optional if the phrase is brief and clear. This aligns with contemporary editing practices that frequently omit the comma for conciseness and readability when the meaning remains unambiguous. Links-[1], [2] and [3].
      • I don't think two commas greatly reduce concision, and in fact they enhance readability to me. This source indicates that using commas with introductory phrases is the traditional route in BrE, so I'll continue using them. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:56, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• The Mongol army under Genghis killed millions, yet his conquests also facilitated unprecedented commercial and cultural exchange across a vast geographical area. Preferred version.
  • I like it. Changed.

I will leave the remaining comments later. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 17:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your time MSincccc. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Name and title

• There is no universal system for romanising Mongolian; consequently, modern spellings of Mongolian names vary significantly and can lead to considerably different pronunciations from the original.
  • What is the improvement?

I have no further suggestions for the prose of this section. I will leave further comments later. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 10:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Birth and Childhood

Early life section

• The location of Temüjin's birth is similarly debated; the Secret History records his birthplace as Delüün Boldog on the Onon River but this has been placed at either Dadal in Khentii Province or in southern Agin-Buryat Okrug, Russia. Replaced the colon with a semi-colon and dropped a redundant comma.
  • Done the first, not the second.
• When Temüjin was eight years old, his father decided to betroth him to a suitable girl. Yesügei took him to the pastures of Hö'elün's prestigious Onggirat tribe, which had intermarried with the Mongols on many previous occasions. By using this version (or similar ones), the use of "he" becomes clearer.
  • Good call.
• As the betrothal meant Yesügei would gain a powerful ally and as Börte commanded a high bride price, Dei Sechen held the stronger negotiating position, and demanded that Temüjin remain in his household to work off his future debt. Dropped the comma after "ally".
  • Done.

Adolescence

• Taking up a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, they collected roots and nuts, hunted for small animals and caught fish. Dropped the last comma as it is unnecessary.

I will return with further suggestions later. Looking forward to your response @AirshipJungleman29 both to these as well as to the previous comments. It's been quite sometime since I last heard from you. Regards MSincccc (talk) 03:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I will get round to your comments when I have the time MSincccc; there is no reason to keep pinging me. Thanks, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• His contemporary Juvayni, who had travelled twice to Mongolia and attained a high position in the administration of a Mongol successor state, was more sympathetic. Added "a" before "high position in the administration..." which is more grammatically correct.
  • Done.
• Juzjani was an eyewitness to the brutality of the Mongol conquests, and the hostility mentioned in his chronicle reflects his experiences. I suppose you refer to the hostility of the accounts mentioned in Juzjani's article; hence this phrase is more suitable in British English.
  • No, I refer to "the hostility of his chronicle".
• Will an article on Zhao Hong (Song diplomat) be created anytime in the near future? If not, should the red link still be retained?
  • See WP:REDLINK—I see no reason why the article could not be created.

I have no further suggestions for this section and will continue with the article later. Looking forward to your response @AirshipJungleman29. MSincccc (talk) 16:38, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire (1219-1221)

• Genghis had now assumed complete control of the eastern portion of the Silk Road, and his territory bordered that of the Khwarazmian Empire, which ruled over much of Central Asia, Persia and Afghanistan.
• Muhammad's empire was large but disunited; he ruled alongside his mother Terken Khatun in what Peter Golden terms "an uneasy diarchy",... Replaced colon with semi-colon. You could also introduce Peter Benjamin Golden in a word or two.
• Leaving his sons Chagatai and Ogedei to besiege the city,... Suggested phrase.
• Jalal al-Din moved southwards to Afghanistan, gathering forces on the way and defeating a Mongol unit under the command of Shigi Qutuqu, Genghis's adopted son, in the Battle of Parwan. Could this sentence be rephrased in order fro it to become clearer as far as its meaning is concerned?
• ...—a number regarded as grossly exaggerated by modern scholars.

Return to China and final campaign (1222–1227)

• Initially aiming to return via India, Genghis realised that the heat and humidity of the South Asian climate impeded his army's skills, while the omens were additionally unfavourable. Replaced with "he" as his name appears in the sentence preceding this one.
• Returning to Mongolia in early 1225, Genghis spent the year in preparation for a campaign against them. Could use his first name at the beginning of a new paragraph.

I will be leaving further suggestions later. Regards MSincccc (talk) 17:54, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Adolescence

• As Temüjin was only around ten and Behter around two years older, neither was considered old enough to rule. Dropped redundant comma.
  • Removed.
• Both Temüjin and Behter had claims to be their father's heir; although Temüjin was the child of Yesügei's chief wife, Behter was at least two years his senior. Replaced colon with a semi-colon.
  • The clauses are related, so a colon is proper use.
• Behter's younger brother Belgutei did not seek vengeance and became one of Temüjin's highest-ranking followers alongside Qasar. Dropped "full-" before brother.
  • The distinction is important. Belgutei was also Temüjin's brother, but not his full-brother.

I have read upto the "Rise to power" section and will leave further suggestions later. MSincccc (talk) 15:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, MSincccc. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Kurultai of 1206 and other reforms'

• Genghis Khan reorganized Mongol society into a military decimal system to diminish traditional tribal loyalties.
  • No, it was not to diminish loyalties, it was to break the whole concept of loyalty to tribes.
• In a demonstration of Genghis Khan's meritocratic ideals, many of his trusted generals hailed from humble backgrounds: according to Ratchnevsky, figures like Jelme and Subutai, sons of blacksmiths, as well as a carpenter, a shepherd, and even the two herdsmen who warned Temüjin of Toghrul's plans in 1203.
  • The first half misrepresents the source, the second half doesn't make grammatical sense.

No they were just minor suggestion from my end. Are you disappointed with them? Anyways, I will be leaving detailed suggestions for the rest of the article later. Looking forward to your response @~~ AirshipJungleman29. MSincccc (talk) 16:14, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I have read upto Later reign: western expansion and return to China (1216–1227) and will leave further suggestions later. MSincccc (talk) 15:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Source review – Pass

Will do soon. Aza24 (talk) 18:04, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Formatting

• A bit confused with your linking of locations. What is the pattern here? I'm guessing you're always linking unless they're well-known, i.e. London and New York. But then I question linking Oxford & Cambridge
  • That is the pattern: Oxford shouldn't have been linked, and Cambridge wasn't (Cambridge, Massachusetts is)
• Some kind of identifier for Togan 2016 would be nice, ISBN, OCLC or something of the sort
• It would make sense to include the editors of Golden 2009 – Aza24 (talk) 21:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
• Joel Achenbach has an article
  • Added all.

Reliability

• The reliability of this article's sources are excellent. All Academic from reliable publishers or high quality news articles when necessary.
• Some of the sources err on the side of older publishing dates.
  • Boyle, Kwanten, Kagchid and Hung seem fine—they're all used sparingly (once each) and for a specific reason.
  • Given that Barthold is an updated edition, edited by a contemporary scholar, that seems suitable. But I do wonder if there are newer sources available, since the source is cited a handful of times.
  • Pelliot seems to have similar issues as the above. Its an older, albeit important source, but used quite a few times. Some of these are unavoidable, but I do wonder if many of them could be switched with newer sources.
    • I can try to look to see if I can swap Barthold out, but Pelliot is only used to cite details of language, and as such will be harder to swap out. However, as they are possibly the two most influential Mongol historians ever, still cited by the highest-quality sources today, I think they are fine as stopgaps.
      • Fair enough, as long is there is a well-reasoned rationale, and its not simply an oversight.

Verifiability

• No issues here. Happy to do spotchecks if requested by the coords – Aza24 (talk) 04:38, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks Aza24, sorry for the delay. Responses above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:05, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
    • No worries, everything looks good. Pass for source review. Again, I'm happy to do spotchecks if requested. – Aza24 (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Kusma

Planning to join the fun. —Kusma (talk) 18:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Name and title: The source (Pelliot 1959) just talks about "Chingis", not about "Chingis Khan". In particular, the Chinese in the source is 成吉思 and the Persian is just چنگیز The "Khan" title should probably be treated separately (or a source used that discusses "Genghis Khan", not just "Genghis").
• Sources: I just tried to find out who the "Zhao Hong" mentioned here is (and to find his name in Chinese characters). The Cambridge History of the Mongol Empire (TWL) seems to indicate he is actually Zhao Gong (趙珙) who wrote a book Meng Da beilu (蒙韃備錄); see zh:蒙韃備錄 or de:Mengda beilu. Can you cross check this with your other sources?
• It might be good to say when the Persian and Christian sources were written.
• Why not link Qojin and Tümelün? (various other Wikipedias also available)
• Various other red links could also perhaps use {{ill}} if articles exist somewhere (I have not checked in detail)
• Defeating rivals: "humiliated the bodies of leaders who had opposed him" what does humiliating the bodies (as opposed to the leaders) mean?
• Early reign: "military [[decimal|decimal system]]" what do you mean by this? It should at least be unlinked and maybe glossed.
• Consolidation of power: "Most Xia troops were stationed along the southern and western borders of the kingdom to guard against attacks from the Song and Jin dynasties respectively" that doesn't make sense given the map: the Jin were to the East?
• Defeating rebellions and Qara Khitai: "the subdued Hoi-yin Irgen tribes in Siberia" do we know a little more precision where this is? Siberia is larger than Canada...
• Invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire: no idea why, but in my settings (300px thumbnails) there is no writing on File:Genghis Khan empire-switch.svg. SVG bug??
• Gloss Peter Golden
• "Ogedei" should be "Ögedei", here and in at least one other place.
• I would recommend to recruit a military history expert to read the campaign sections, if you haven't already.
• Succession: "reducing the wealthy city" not sure this is the best possible expression
• Death and aftermath: "may have buried the khan in the Ordos to avoid his body decomposing in the summer heat" why would the Ordos Plateau help? Gloss this? Or is it the Ordos Desert?
• "Yelu Chucai" should be Yelü Chucai ("lu" and "lü" represent different sounds in Chinese).
• Legacy: it would be nice to hear a little bit more about perception outside of Mongolia. Is the "modern Muslim world" completely united in its assessment? (One could imagine Iranians to have different opinions from Uyghurs). Did the view of Genghis Khan among historical Europeans depend on whether the Mongols came to their lands in the 1200s? (Ukrainians might think about him different from French). Did Western European knowledge of Genghis Khan come only via Marco Polo or did medieval historians learn anything from Mongol-occupied Eastern Europe?
• Length: the article is long. It probably has good reasons to be long. If cutting is desired, I would suggest to leave the interesting "Legacy" section alone and to summarise / subarticle-ise more of the comparatively boring sections about the military campaigns. (Other people probably disagree).

An interesting read; I look forward to being able to support once some issues have been addressed. —Kusma (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Remsense

Ping me if I don't get to this by Wednesday. Remsense诉 18:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• @Remsense: It's not wednesday and I'm not airship, but I'm pinging you :P Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments from HAL

Much respect for tackling an article like this. Comments to come soon. Ping me if I go AWOL. ~ HAL333 14:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

• Over the next decade and a half, Temüjin and Börte would have --> "Over the next decade and a half, Temüjin and Börte had" per WP:WOULDCHUCK
• This same issue pops up several times:

• As he would later go on to overthrow that state --> "As he later overthrew that state"
• later known as the Baljuna Covenant, to his faithful followers, which would later grant them exclusivity and prestige -- also has a repetitive use of "later"
• the white tuq pictured here represent peace, while a black tuq would represent war - Why would "would" only be used for black tuq?
• whom they would serve and who in return would evaluate
• a grant which the Taoists would later use to try to gain superiority over Buddhism
• which would become the Chagatai Khanate
• and who would succeed his father as ruler of the empire
• You get the point. Check all other uses of "would" to determine if they're actually necessary. Some (e.g. for the subjunctive) certainly are of course.

• "that the chronology of the work" --> that the work's chronology" for concision
• "the historian Paul Ratchnevsky notes that Temüjin himself may not have known the truth" -- Ratchnevsky is deceased, so I might change that to "noted"
• Should "birth-name" be hyphenated? It isn't per the Oxford, Cambridge, and Collins dictionaries.
• "a motif in Asian folklore which indicated the child would be a warrior" --> "a motif in Asian folklore indicating the child would be a warrior"
• "prestigious Onggirat tribe" -- How was the tribe itself 'prestigious'? Were they wealthy? Powerful? Is a better word/explanation needed here?
• "they exchanged knucklebones" - Their own? Of some kind of animal? Is this an idiom for a fistfight?Further elaboration is needed.
• "at the age of eleven" --> "at age eleven" would suffice.
• "before allowing him to escape" - was he holding him against his will? Did he simply aid his escape?
• Maybe reword "an adolescent named Bo'orchu who aided him in retrieving stolen horses" as "Bo'orchu, an adolescent who aided him in retrieving stolen horses" but feel free to disregard.
• "had been lost" --> to the less literary and more concise "had died"
• "Ratchnevsky has questioned if Temüjin actually became Jamukha's nökor" - I know you previously defined nokor as "personal companion", but the way this is worded suggests there is some weight to this? Likely some cultural significance? Could you explain/clarify?
• "cryptic remark" - Could you explain this remark, maybe in a footnote?
• "Temüjin was able to subdue" --> "Temüjin subdued"
• "being termed" -- I don't think "being" is needed.
• Maybe change "to catch the Kereit unawares" --> "to ambush the Kereit"

That's all for now. Nice work. ~ HAL333 00:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)