Talk:TESCREAL

Restoring this Page

This term has quickly common into common usage in a wide range of essays, news coverage and other discussion of AI and the culture of Silicon Valley and the tech industry in the US. I'm concerned that its deletion/ merge with the term's originator may have been a hasty decision spurred on by some editors with a bias against outside criticism of TESCREAL ideologies. As an editor who usually focuses on topics in the arts, I'd like to see if editors with less baggage related to the charged topics at hand might take a stab at developing a page for this subject that would quite easily qualify based on notability and other benchmarks. Mbroderick271 (talk) 23:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to take a crack at improving this article, eventually, after exams are done.

I've mostly just been doing rando edits while exams are on for me haha.

I might go thru the WP:REFUND process to try my hand at this, when I have the time. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 05:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Timnit Gebru and Émile P. Torres created the acronym TESCREAL to describe a group of ideologies popular among people focused on existential risk from artificial general intelligence?

• Source: [1], [2]

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Kelvite sounding machine

Moved to mainspace by Bluethricecreamman (talk), GorillaWarfare (talk), and JoaquimCebuano (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 21 past nominations.

GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:16, 1 July 2024 (UTC).

• The readable prose size is 1,119 words which is well short of the required 1,500 words. Notifying nominator.

  @PearlyGigs: DYK requires articles be greater than 1,500 characters in length, which this article exceeds (7,845). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 20:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  Characters? Oh, dear! My apologies, GorillaWarfare, and I'll continue. First one of these I've done. PearlyGigs (talk) 20:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Was a draft until today so new enough and, as I now realise, also long enough. I can't see any problems in the article around copyvio, POV or OR. Sourcing looks good overall and the hook citations appear to be sound and reliable. The hook is certainly interesting because it caught my eye immediately when I was checking my own nomination. QPQ has been done. I think this is fine and it should be promoted. PearlyGigs (talk) 21:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose this nomination: An article on this subject was deleted 7 months ago because of weak sourcing. There haven't been any new sources added other than a paper by the two proponents of this theory and lots of other really weak sources. Wikipedia's job isn't to promote anti-vaxx conspiracy theories or other conspiracy theories, of which in my and other people's opinions, this is one. The only people claiming that ANYONE adheres to these multiple philosophies is Torres and Gebru. ---Avatar317^(talk) 00:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Original admin who closed AfD undeleted it after i proposed appropriate changes. the AfD never came to consensus of conspiracy theory (just u), and deleted it due to lack of WP:N. if u want to delete this again, use AfD again or bug the original admin.Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that that would be a conversation for AfD, not DYK. The article is neutral and adequately sourced. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 01:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The LEAD is well written and neutral, thanks for that.---Avatar317^(talk) 03:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• I was aware when I did the DYK review that the article is about ideologies, but I don't consider the article to be promoting those ideologies because it is neutral. The subject, in my opinion, is notable. I can't say I'm knowledgeable about TESCREAL but the article does appear to be adequately sourced. I've been reading it again and I still think the hook should be promoted. But, as I say, I am not an SME in this area so I will happily step aside if an SME is needed. Incidentally, the lead is the primary location of the hook material and its two sources. Thanks. PearlyGigs (talk) 09:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• I have to second the concerns brought up above: this article was merged in November for poor sourcing and the fact that it seemed to lean very heavily into the op-ed angle of the source it did use. To be clear, I certainly have a great personal distaste for the majority of people who run the majority of software companies, and ethical objections to a good portion of the United States' GDP (I am a diehard Linux user with all of the political implications that entails). However, the implication that "global tech elites" are engaged in a deliberate scheme to carry out eugenics (as one of the sources said from the previous version of this article), based on a collection of op-eds and blog posts where people who hate them say this a bunch of times, seems to raise some rather significant BLP issues. It is somewhat concerning to vaguely imply this in wikivoice as though it's settled fact, and then the citations are to a journal of biosemiotics. jp×g🗯️ 02:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Posting on here same stuff as in the Talk Page section:

A) This article was merged for lack of WP:N. If you consider it still an issue, use WP:AfD or bug the original admin who deleted, merged, than undeleted this. It isn't a valid argument to suggest that it's settled that it deserves to remerged if we've added a ton of sourcing and improved on it. Settle it by starting the process to delete it if you want.

B) Are there reliable sources indicating that TESCREAL is a significantly derogatory epithet similar to Libtard/Chud? Marc Andreessen self-describes as TESCREAList. Many of these folks regularly ascribe to multiple of these philosophies as transhumanists, ethical altruists, long-termists, etc. Sourcing here does not necessarily imply that every TESCREAList is also a eugenicist, nor do we use WP:SYNTH to suggest that these folks are all eugenicists. There is no mention of eugenicist claims in the third section. Also, we have Big Tech as a wikipedia article along with criticism, which is also a similar "perjorative" against tech companies, and other significant "perjoratives" with negative connotations such as Democrat in Name Only and Cuckservative. These all explain what opinion writers and commentators mean, and why. This article is far more tame than many of those.

C) That more than a dozen opinions use a term like this should be notable enough. I suspect that any sort of article about philosophies will require opinionated sources or commentaries. Effective altruism includes sourcing from Centre for Effective Altruism and by extension the Effective Altruism Forum, study centers specifically invested in effective altruism and founded by leaders, as well as many opinions.

D) WP:OPINION applies here, especially for philosphical arguments. I looked for criticisms of TESCREAL. If more are published, we can include them. These sources are WP:SECONDARY, they contain analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. Secondary sources are not necessarily independent sources.

E) If you want to settle WP:BLP, please post in the section on WP:BLPN. We've already started and done this argument. There are multiple sources on WP:PUBLICFIGUREs here alleging that many of these folks use TESCREAL to justify their tech projects, and we make sure to use the word "allege" correctly, as per WP:OPINION, along with the correct sourcing

Conclusion:) TESCREAL is unliked by some portion of folks on here for some reason. I'm happy to listen to arguments, but I want an argument about why we are suddenly so sensitive about criticism of Elon Musk/etc. for using human extinction for every time someone criticizes his behavior or cars or products. If you are just an elon musk/nick bostrum/etc. fan, than say it and stop throwing mud on an article that contains a criticism of philosophies that occurs often enough that we can gather 20+ sources, including 10 using the term in severe detail to directly dissect the argument that yelling extinction every 15 minutes doesn't mean you've justified your next mega project. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 Note: In the interests of not duplicating every comment, I'll just note that there is a parallel discussion happening at Talk:TESCREAL#Neutrality (to/from which some of these comments have been copied). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 12:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

wp:blp applies to poorly sourced material

please use discretion and do not delete large portions of an article without cause Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Avatar317 stop editwarring on a newly recreated article and discuss on talk page or on the WP:BLPN

Most of the sourcing on this article comes from well publicized news sources, and most of these figures are WP:PUBLICFIGURE

Some are self-confessed TESCREALists and happily declare themselves to be. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

There were some sentences that were sourced only to Torres, which I agree need secondary sourcing. However I do agree that the sourcing is acceptable for the others. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 02:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just seeing this is at BLPN now. Dropping the link for anyone else who may have missed it: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#TESCREAL#Alleged TESCREALists GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 03:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Weasel word section

"Likewise, views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions, if those expressions accurately represent the opinions of the source."

@Avatar317 please self-revert. Every claim has multiple sources. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Multiple incredibly low-quality sources. See the previous Talk discussions, The Washington Spectator is a very low quality source, and a lot is sourced to it. ---Avatar317^(talk) 03:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm only seeing one mention of the Washington Spectator at RSN: a 2015 discussion where an editor referred to it as "obviously reliable".

I addressed several instances of vague {{who?}} wording earlier ([3], [4]), but when summarizing opinions presented in multiple sources you tend to end up with a laundry list of names that a reader can go to the references section to find. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 03:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:OPINION applies according to WP:RSP. It can be used with attribution and without stating it as a fact, which we do.

Also, it is only used for Ray Kurzweiller and Musk. Idk if we need Kurzweiller if only a single source suggests he is TESCREALIST, as per what Avatar says.

But Musk has 5 others sources in addition to Washington Spectator. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I've removed Kurzweil, as he's mentioned frequently and uncontroversially in the context of "TES", but not so much in the context of "CREAL". One could probably WP:SYNTH together various sources describing him as someone who has been influential to the CREAL world, but I think we should wait for secondary sources to focus on him in the TESCREAL context before listing him here. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 03:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be healthier for the article to let other people engage with it. I made the first version and struggled for it, and you made several intervention then. Now other people took an interested, which i think is the best way to produce a less one-sided article. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality

I will repost here what I said at the DYK nomination: I have to second the concerns brought up there. This article was merged in November for poor sourcing and the fact that it seemed to lean very heavily into the op-ed angle of the source it did use. To be clear, I certainly have a great personal distaste for the majority of people who run the majority of software companies, and ethical objections to a good portion of the United States' GDP (I am a diehard Linux user with all of the political implications that entails). However, the implication that "global tech elites" are engaged in a deliberate scheme to carry out eugenics (as one of the sources said from the previous version of this article), based on a collection of op-eds where people who hate them say this a bunch of times, seems to raise some rather significant BLP issues. It is somewhat concerning to vaguely imply this in wikivoice as though it's settled fact, and then the citations are to a bunch of op-eds and a journal of biosemiotics.

In general, I would say that the term is pretty obviously a derogatory epithet, made up by two people specifically to describe other people with whom they have extensive political disagreements and personally dislike. We would not have an article called Chud (politics) or Libtard (politics) and then said in wikivoice a bunch of stuff about how they hated freedom et cetera, cited to clickpieces about same. We do have articles about pejorative terms, e.g. simp, SJW, Christofascist, cuckservative, angry white male, feminazi, but these are written to be about the use of the terms, they don't get distracted after the lead and then get into "But seriously, folks:". jp×g🗯️ 02:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

A) This article was merged for lack of WP:N. If you consider it still an issue, use WP:AfD or bug the original admin who deleted, merged, than undeleted this. It isn't a valid argument to suggest that it's settled that it deserves to remerged if we've added a ton of sourcing. Settle it by starting the process.

B) Are there reliable sources indicating that TESCREAL is a significantly derogatory epithet similar to Libtard/Chud? Marc Andreessen self-describes as TESCREAList. Many of the sourcing here does not necessarily imply that every TESCREAList is also a eugenicist, only two. Also, we have Big Tech as a wikipedia article along with criticism, which is arguably also a similar perjorative against tech companies.

C) That more than a dozen opinions use a term like this should be notable enough. I suspect that any sort of article about philosophies will require opinionated sources or commentaries. Effective altruism includes sourcing from Centre for Effective Altruism and by extension the Effective Altruism Forum, study centers specifically invested in effective altruism and founded by leaders, as well as many opinions.

D) WP:OPINION applies here, especially for philosphical arguments. I looked for criticisms of TESCREAL. If more are published, we can include them. These sources are WP:SECONDARY, they contain analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. Secondary sources are not necessarily independent sources.

E) If you want to settle WP:BLP, please post in the section on WP:BLPN. We've already started and done this argument. There are multiple sources on WP:PUBLICFIGUREs here alleging that many of these folks use TESCREAL to justify their tech projects, and we make sure to use the word "allege" correctly, as per WP:OPINION, along with the correct sourcing. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I dont think its sustainable to compare TESCREAL with "simp, SJW, Christofascist, cuckservative, angry white male, feminazi", they are not derogatory in the same sense at all. TESCREAL is an acronym, composed by the terms created and used by advocate's themselves. As a neologism, it is primarily an attempt of render the overlaps and interconnections between them visible. Its a concept of scholarly value, an analysis of contemporary ideological formations - "made up by two people specifically to describe other people with whom they have extensive political disagreements and personally dislike" - is extremely unjust to the actual context of their proposition and use.

Transhumanism relation with eugenics is not even controversial, even if some, or most, theorists attempt to dissociate and criticize this root. And the ideas of tech sub-culture already have a lot of bibliography dedicated to its analysis, even when its not flattering at all - The Californian Ideology, Technolibertarianism. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 05:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually, allegations that Elon Musk and Nick Bostrum use philosophies connected to eugenics is well documented too.

In terms of Musk's pronatalist views: "Mainstream demographers, anthropologists and other experts who spoke with Businessweek say this is because the movement writ large is synonymous with junk science, the heir to a legacy of racism and eugenics espoused by earlier generations of dubious population researchers" [5]

Nick Bostrum's Future of Humanity Institute is also dogged by commentary such as "Eugenics on Steroids". [6]

We should not worry about public figures facing criticism, and us summarizing that criticism. These opinions aren't random blog posts, they are published in reputable sources, and we correctly use WIKIVoice. If folks want to find more, or if you find appropriate criticism of the term TESCREAL, feel free to include it. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I feel like this article is extremely cautious about using in-text attribution to avoid presenting things in wikivoice. Can you be more specific about where you think that's missing? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 11:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank YOU for adding that attribution, and hopefully Bluethricecreamman will take those clues and write more like that. Those issues were a huge part of my complaint and removal of the "Alleged TESCREALists" section. ---Avatar317^(talk) 22:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

find reliable sourcing and we can put in attributed voice that many consider it a conspiracy theory Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I think this post from the previous deletion discussion for this article is relevant to this current discussion:

   It seems there's two relevant evaluations of the acronym: 1) There is a cluster of groups/ideologies, and it's reasonable to have a name for it; and 2) the coiners of the term are fond of making conspiracy-theoretic insinuations about the group.
   I think both are correct (except Cosmism doesn't belong). TheDefenseProfessor (talk) 20:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• "the coiners of the term are fond of making conspiracy-theoretic insinuations about the group" this statement is more arbitrary and source-less than any sentence of the whole article. I was there during this deletion process, and this accusation of 'conspiracy' was sadly unjustified and yet repeated to exhaustion. Lets have a serious discussion of what qualifies as a conspiracy, if someone really intends to insist on this point. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 23:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

As I'm sure you know, this James Hughes (sociologist) post: [7] characterizes it as a conspiracy theory, but until TESCREAL gets enough publicity for a good solid source (like NYT, WSJ, etc) to do some thorough reporting on it, we don't yet have any strong sources calling it a conspiracy theory.

Note that no current sources say that TESCREAL is bad; the ones we have all attribute the claims of TESCREAL's malevalence to Gebru or Torres. ---Avatar317^(talk) 01:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

A sole source from someone that has as much convictions in play as Torres and Gebru; worth to add in the article as a critical voice, but cannot assert itself as a conclusive evidence. Also, if I could give my personal evaluation, Hughes text has some serious flaws, for example when he attempts to dismiss the presence of cosmism - even if this term is not the best possible choice, we have previous scholarship that provide an overview of the strength of ideologies which could be called 'space expansionism', see Daniel Deudney 2020 book.

"the ones we have all attribute the claims of TESCREAL's malevalence to Gebru or Torres" - in the sense that Gebru and Torres coined the term, I agree that logically they could be the only initial critics of TESCREAL, but each and every line of this ideology has received independent reviews that agree, at least partially, with Gebru and Torres, even if not naming it all as 'TESCREAL'. If you read their article, you will also see an abundance of sources investigating the social and political stakes of AI, transhumanism and so on and so on, especially the negative ones. Its not sustainable to say that the topic is understudied in this sense. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 01:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No evidence for claims made in this article

There is no evidence that these ideas are connected to eugenics, scientific racism, or anything similar. The authors of the article that coined the term have a history of generating a lot of media noise by yelling "racist!" and "sexist!" at anything they don't like, and therefore this seems to by somewhat of a manufactured controversy. Partofthemachine (talk) 22:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

put it in a criticism section with reliable sourcing Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:02, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is filled with sources, this kind of blatant statement lack any value in a constructive discussion. You must criticize the specifics if you are interested in making any point. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 23:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)