Talk:Jimmy Lee (album)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jimmy Lee (album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 13:02, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Soon --K. Peake 13:02, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Cover art needs alt text
• Target North Hollywood to North Hollywood, Los Angeles
• Remove hlist with bullet points
• Wikilink Raphael Saddiq under producers since it is not overlinking for album infoboxes
• "August 23, 2019, following the critical success of his 2011 album Stone Rollin'" → "August 23, 2019. The album's release followed the critical success of Saddiq's fourth studio album Stone Rollin' (2011)"
  • Too choppy, short of a sentence IMO. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
    • How about "Released by Columbia Records on August 23, 2019, it follows the ...? That way, the independent clause is longer than the dependent clause and it reads smoother. isento (talk) 04:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
      • You need to properly introduce Stone Rollin' as his fourth studio album, while the sentences should be separate as a three sentence para is a bit too short truth be told. --K. Peake 09:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
        • No, I do not. It is implied that it was his fourth by the introduction of Jimmy Lee as his fifth and the wording, that it follows that album. Splitting the sentences up may make the paragraph aesthetically acceptable in your eyes, but it will be a less attractive read with choppy shorter sentences. isento (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
          • I am following Wikipedia:What the good article criteria are not, but a two sentence opening para looks awful on big monitors so this should be a separate sentence even if re-worded. --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
            • It looks fine on my monitor, and the majority of page views here appear to have been on mobile platforms. I don't see how merely separating the sentence into two would even fix the problem you are claiming. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
              • I've expanded the lead a bit for a different reason: to mention that the projects were associated with African-American culture, which would lead in well into the second paragraph. Hopefully that also fixes your issue. isento (talk) 17:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "on other musical projects." → "on other projects." since the projects are clearly not just musical
  • All his roles were musical, making them musical projects. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
• Wikilink upbeat per MOS:LINK2SECT
  • "Upbeat" in this article is not meant as the last beat of a bar, but simply the most basic definition of the word. So it does not need to be linked (WP:OVERLINK). isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target family dysfunction to Dysfunctional family
• Target mass incarceration to Incarceration in the United States
• "by his older brother," → "by the singer's older brother"
• Target heroin overdose to Opioid overdose
• "was young and after" → "was young, and after"
• "for the album, was joined in its recording" → "for it, was joined during recording"
  • "Joined during" evokes a sense that those people spontaneously hopped in while the album was already in the process of being made, which we don't know; it could have been planned beforehand. "In its recording" is less specific as to the nature of the timing of their joining. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Either way, my main gripe is using "the album" as a term in this sentence when it was used close to the end of the previous sentence --K. Peake 09:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
      • That is not grammatically incorrect or objectionable from a grammatical standpoint, but fine. I will substitute the latter "album" with Jimmy Lee. isento (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
        • I did some brief copyediting here, though did not change to the originally requested revision as that would be violating our discussion --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "While performing modestly" → "While it performed modestly"
  • Not necessary. And this changes the mean of the word "while". Your suggestion would make it mean the sentence is comparing the modest performance to the rest of the sentence, when the point is to say these two things happened simultaneously, giving the sentence a sense of action for readers, which would engage them more than your wording. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
• "widespread acclaim and" → "widespread acclaim from music critics and" with the target
  • No. Any competent reader will understand what a music critic is. The term is self-explanatory enough. (WP:OVERLINK) isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Additionally, it can be inferred from "acclaim" that it came from critics, who are mentioned in the following sentence. No need to repeat it. isento (talk) 06:07, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
• "through the complexities of its lyrical tragedies." → "through the lyrical tragedies' complexities."
  • No. That is worse syntax and less readable. "Of its" gives readers space to pronounce those three particular three-to-four-syllable words that are crammed together in your suggestion. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
• "toured the US in" → "embarked on a tour of the United States in"
  • That is being needlessly wordy and not concise. (WP:BECONCISE) isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
  • It is acceptable to abbreviate the country as the US, unless it is mentioned in the same sentence as another country. (MOS:US) isento (talk) 02:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Still, change the "embarked" part to avoid repetitive wording with the body --K. Peake 09:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
      • I've revised the wording in the body. isento (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "accompanied by a live band and" → "being accompanied by a live band, and" since otherwise it sounds like the live band are his opening act as well
  • I just removed that part. It is common enough for a touring artist to have a live band, readers can assume this much. isento (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Apart from the ones directly replied to above, I made all the other suggested changes. isento (talk) 02:50, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
      • I replied to any of the ones where you were still incorrect --K. Peake 09:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Background

• "In between albums," → "In between the albums,"
  • I've changed it back to the original, which sounds more natural and better. Just compare the Google results for each, which I think are an indication of readability and the natural feel of one phrasing over another: 138,000 vs 121,000 isento (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target Academy Award to Academy Awards
• ""emboldened" him for his next album." → ""emboldened Saadiq" for Jimmy Lee."
  • I mentioned Saadiq in the context of this quote. isento (talk) 00:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • My bad for missing that; still, I have mentioned the title of the album here since that is a minor edit --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "is inspired in part and named after Saadiq's brother," → "is named after and inspired in part by Saadiq's brother,"
• "chronicles for City Pages," → "chronicled for City Pages,"
  • I am using a narrative voice for this quote to serve as commentary in telling this story. The past tense would read better for describing an event that took place. isento (talk) 00:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Writing and recording

• Img needs alt text
• "and produced the album at" → "and produced Jimmy Lee at"
• Target Brook D'Leau to J*Davey
• "most popular music today."" → "most popular music today"."
  • Per WP:LQ, quoting a complete sentence should place the terminating punctuation inside the quotation mark. isento (talk) 00:30, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Music and lyrics

• "The resulting music is a" → "The resulting music of the recording marks a"
• "of Saadiq's previous solo albums" → "of his previous solo albums,"
• "Instead, it features" → "Instead, Jimmy Lee features"
• "Aswad cites influences in" → "Aswad cited influences from"
  • "From" is already said earlier, and analytical commentary in this context doesn't require the past tense. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target socially conscious to Social consciousness
  • Would most readers really not understand the meaning of that word? isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily, it is not an overly obvious word like "water" or "piano", for instance --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Okay, I'll link it. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "says the project strives" → "said the album strives"
  • How does that improve the sentence? isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Because it is obviously appropriate to use the term "the album" instead --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • It may be obvious to you, but you have not explained why. Readers can use a break from "album", which appears 57 times in the article, and "project" has an artistic/creative connotation suitable for this particular sentence. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
        • You should use "the album" for consistency is what I meant, since it reads akwardly using "the project" only once during an article --K. Peake 08:05, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target Detroit Metro Times to Metro Times
• "observes elements of" → "observed elements of"
• Target neo-soul to Neo soul
• Target crooning to Crooner
• "The album's soul songs have" → "The soul songs on Jimmy Lee have"
• "in the form of clashing electronic sounds" → "in a form that includes clashing electronic sounds" with the target
  • There is no indication in the source that the writer was referring to sounds from electronic music, but merely that the sounds were electronic. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • You do not need the target, but change the wording still --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • No. It is "in the form of". The writer defines it as "sonic dissonance", and he specifically defines the clashing sounds as the form, not merely part of a form. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "rough-sounding synthesizer sounds" → "rough-sounding synthesizers" with the wikilink
• Target bluesy to Blues
• "on "My Walk", "his" → "on "My Walk", which is "his"
• "says Gaillot." → "according to Gaillot."
  • "According" is already used immediately after this sentence. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "that Greg Kot describes as" → "that Greg Kot from the Chicago Tribune described as" with the wikilink
  • It would not be wise to waste an in-text reference and link to the Tribune so early in the article when it is referred to later on. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Img needs alt text
• Shouldn't a semi-colon be used in place of the full stop on the img main text so the connection is made better?
  • No. I don't see what a semicolon has to do with the caption connecting to anything. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • It makes it clearer how the kit is connected to the lyrical content of the album --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • It's already in the caption. That is connection enough. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "the album follows characters" → "Jimmy Lee follows characters"
• Target AIDS to HIV/AIDS
• [2][10][1] should be in numerical order
  • Actually, common practice in my experience and as has been advised to me in FA reviews is to order them based on the order of the material they are supporting. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • This should be fine then, I just remember being told before it was supposed to be this way but it's minor so leave it --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "describes it more broadly" → "described it more broadly"
• Mention that The Way I See It is his third studio album
  • That is trivial to the point being discussed in this context. It is too much information. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • No it is not, this is different from the lead when the fourth studio album part is obvious
• "draws on Jimmy Lee's reputation" → "draws on Lee's reputation"
  • He is not mentioned directly by name anywhere earlier in the article. A full-name reference makes sense here. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "Another Motown-influenced track, "Rikers Island", is" → "Fellow Motown-influenced track "Rikers Island" is"
  • That is an unnatural and awkward way use of the word "Fellow", which is used mostly in reference to people or groups of people, not things or inanimate objects like song recordings. isento (talk) 00:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Marketing and sales

• "were also released as" → "were released as"
• Mention when the singles were released if you can find sourcing of the dates, plus why are they not listed in the infobox at all?
  • I have found it! Added. isento (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "leading up to the album," → "leading up to the album's release,"
• "about his relationship with Jimmy Lee and his heroin addiction." → "about the role of heroin addiction in Lee's life." or something similar, since this is more accurate of what the source says
  • Paste says Saadiq "spoken recently about how much he loved and idolized his older brother as a child", so both are correct, but I've revised it to mention "the role". isento (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "the album charted" → "Jimmy Lee charted"
  • The title is already exhausted a bit in the preceding paragraph. And it's not necessary given it's the only album discussed here. isento (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • You shouldn't be using "the album" two consecutive times, if anything that is exhausting more --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Done. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "on Billboard's Top Album Sales in the week" → "on the US Billboard Top Album Sales chart in the week"
  • I mentioned it "charted in the US". isento (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• [4] should be solely at the end of the sentence before [15]
• "in the role of concert DJ" → "as the concert DJ"
  • That would make it slightly more repetitive. The current revision is not incorrect from a grammatical point of view either. isento (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Critical reception

• Target And It Don't Stop to Robert Christgau
• [25] should be solely at the end of the sentence before [26]
• "the 63rd-scoring album" → "the 63rd highest-scoring album"
• Remove "in October 2019" because the date of the review is not important; section starts with "was met with..."
  • It reminds readers of the timeframe and context. Also, the previous paragraph ends with a later date. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "the curve."" → "the curve"."
  • Again, WP:LQ. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "of Jimmy Lee growing up." → "of Lee when growing up."
  • We don't know whether this is his first and middle name or his first and last name or his whole first name. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target Consumer Guide to Robert Christgau#"Consumer Guide" and "Expert Witness" columns
  • There are already two links to Christgau's article in this section. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target hook to Hook (music)
• "album" that places" → "album", which places"
  • "That" is better here because ending the previous clause with a comma and "which" can make it sound as though the following dependent clause is referring wholly to the independent clause. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "1990s group, Tony! Toni! Toné!, "in" → "1990s group Tony! Toni! Toné! "in"
  • It's a long sentence, and the reader could use a comma for the pause. Nor is it grammatically incorrect. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Full stop should be after the exclamation mark to end this sentence, as that is clearly part of the album's title due to being italicised
  • No, it shouldn't (MOS:CONSECUTIVE) isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• "favorite albums from 2019 and" → "favorite albums of 2019, and"
  • We already have the "of" wording in the previous sentence. It's not necessary again. They mean the same thing. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Yeah that is fine I guess, I have added the comma though for grammar reasons --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Identify the format as being album since otherwise it is confusing to readers
• "broken family."" → "broken family"."
  • Done. isento (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Track listing

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION
  • See it for what? Is there an issue? isento (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Wikilink Raphael Saadiq
• Target Brook D'Leau to J*Davey
• Duckworth → Kendrick Duckworth under songwriters, with the target

Personnel

• Separate this by using div col since there is a large amount of names
  • WP:PERSONNEL advises to do that for 20 or more. There are 19 here. isento (talk) 01:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Target Brook D'Leau to J*Davey

Charts

• See MOS:TABLECAPTION
• Make the positions sortable since it is more than one or two
  • They already are. isento (talk) 01:15, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

See also

• Good

References

• Copyvio score looks poor at 51.9%; fix the EW ref's overquoting to adjust this
  • The tool is not working for me, but I've trimmed the quote. isento (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Make sure all of these are archived by using the tool
  • Is there some new policy requiring this that I'm not aware of? Because unless the link has died already, I don't see the necessity of it right now. isento (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • It is advised to do this, since links often end up rotting so it is best to archive them while you easily can --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • @Kyle Peake: I help isento with this edit. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 09:19, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
        • TheAmazingPeanuts Thank you, let's see what happens with the other issues --K. Peake 16:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
          • Guys. If a link dies, a BOT will automatically add the archive link (WP:WBM) Doing it later rather than sooner would not preclude the availability of such a link. isento (talk) 17:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• Remove the publisher from ref 10
• Target Detroit Metro Times to Metro Times on ref 11
• Cite Album of the Year as publisher instead for ref 19
• Cite SFGate as publisher instead for ref 26
  • SFGate is a work, not a publisher. More specifically, it is an online newspaper, which should be italicized. isento (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
• WP:OVERLINK of Chicago Tribune on ref 27
• Wikilink Columbia Records on ref 29
• Why are two refs cited as bibliography sources when other highly similar sources are not? I believe it may be best to cite them all as standard sources, but I am willing to here your viewpoint of course!
  • That is leftover from the earliest revisions I made to this article. I've changed it. isento (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Further reading

• Good

External links

• Good

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold until the issues are fixed and I am willing to elaborate on any points that may cause confusion if you reach out to me, though admittedly there might be more points to make while the changes are going through implementation depending on what happens. --K. Peake 10:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Okay, for the most part, I've responded to your points either with the recent changes to the article or a direct response here. isento (talk) 01:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Isento Nice job, though I have replied on any comments where I disagree with your reasoning for not implementing the changes. --K. Peake 08:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Isento ✓ Pass time after I did some copy editing to fix any remaining issues; thank you for your patience on this review page too. --K. Peake 08:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)