Talk:Hurricane Beryl

Title

Should this soon-to-be article's title be changed to simply Hurricane Beryl, without the year (i.e., Draft:Hurricane Beryl)? I think this year's iteration of Beryl will meet the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria once it gets moved to the main space, given the anticipation of its impacts in the Lesser Antilles and the rest of the Caribbean. Vida0007 (talk) 16:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Given that this storm will clearly meet primary topic criteria, the title should become Hurricane Beryl when this draft is moved to main space. Drdpw (talk) 16:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

BTW, the title 'Hurricane Beryl' exists as a redirect to List of storms named Beryl. Drdpw (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I published the article as "Hurricane Beryl (2024)", since there was another hurricane named Beryl. The discussion is only a tad bit premature. I can hope all I want, but what I say isn't going to affect the storm. If the storm becomes significantly more notable than the 2018 Hurricane Beryl, then at that time it will get the main article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for publishing the article! Regarding the matter of naming, I had anticipated that the page would linger in draft space longer, until the storm had interacted with land and people. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 01:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Beryl has struck Carriacou with 150 mph winds and is already confirmed to have caused significant damage to the island and other islands in the Grenadines, based on various livestreams. This clearly sticks out from the 2018 Beryl and will probably be retired next spring, so it shouldn't have the year anymore. Rye998 (talk) 15:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved per WP:SNOW and reasonable arguments why speedy closure is warranted. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

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Hurricane Beryl (2024) → Hurricane Beryl – This hurricane is clearly more notable than Hurricane Beryl (2018) and is only going to be increasing in notability as time goes on. ✶Quxyz✶ 16:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Support – virtually unprecedented storm and has attracted much media attention moreso then 2018. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 16:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support - I agree with everything MarioProtIV said. 24.115.255.37 (talk) 17:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support It's unlikely to be retired, but regardless is clearly more notable than the 2018 storm, both for impacts and records (not to say that the 2018 storm wasn't also somewhat exceptional). Somewhat relatedly, a good system for determining the primary topic when it comes to duplicate-named storms should definitely be worked on. AveryTheComrade (talk) 17:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait Plenty of media attention, but let's wait until it's impacts are fully known or its name is formally retired. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 17:30, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait - Needs more media attention and better coverage of the impacts. Hansen Sebastian^Talk 17:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait I'll almost certainly change this to Support once it's all said and done. However, its first landfall was just ~3 hrs ago, and it has at least a week to continue its impacts across the Caribbean and potentially the Gulf. We should wait until its impacts are more thoroughly known and covered by media. Strong support seeing as Beryl is now officially the earliest category 5 on record for the basin. Furthermore, early news reports of damage throughout the Windwards are already harrowing and extensive. Further impacts are expected for Jamaica and Yucatan, so I only see notability increasing further hence. ArkHyena (talk) 17:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait In all likelihood, this change will happen eventually. However, to make that determination just hours after its first landfall is premature. ChessEric 18:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Support — Beryl made landfall on Carriacou with 150 mph winds, and this storm I heard has already had significant impacts and lots of media attention. I think this article title would be better off as Hurricane Beryl without the year. This storm has also broken records for its strength this early in the season as well. VehicleandWeatherEnthusiast2022 (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait, but very likely support in the not-too-distant future. Currently affecting populated areas at 150 mph, broke several records already, and more landfalls are on the way unless forecasts change significantly. As we learn more about the damage it's already caused (and is continuing to cause), there's a good chance a move will be justified soon. And if this initial landfall doesn't justify dropping the (2024), it's still forecast to affect more islands and eventually make landfall in Mexico. We have reason to believe this probably will be the most notable Hurricane Beryl article. Give it some time and we'll know for sure.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Changing !vote from Wait to Support Over $1b in damages now, intensified further to 165 mph, hurricane warning issued in Jamaica, still on course to then strike the Yucatán Peninsula at hurricane strength after that. I think we can be sufficiently confident that this is the most notable Beryl now.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 11:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support - This is a Category 4 hurricane heading straight for Jamaica. Even if we change it back to "Hurricane Beryl (2024)" later, it should definitely be "Hurricane Beryl" right now, as that is the storm readers (especially in the Caribbean) are looking for (both Jamaica and Belize are English-speaking countries in the projected path of this hurricane). Nosferattus (talk) 20:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Support I believe this hurricane, meets WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria. Drdpw (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait per others --_ZZ^Z'S 21:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Leaning towards Support because of its damage. If the fatalities also increase dramatically, I'll gladly change my vote. Also, it's intensity has nothing to do with this. _ZZ^Z'S 06:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support 100% more notable than the other Beryls by a large margin. _ZZ^Z'S 17:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait until the name is retired. Benpiano800 (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

We don't require that storm names are retired to drop the year, and waiting for retirement would also require waiting until the WMO meets a year later. And in response to Trooncel above, we also usually drop the year while the storm is still active; we rarely retroactively remove it. We only need to know that this is the most notable Hurricane Beryl that has a Wikipedia article.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the correction. Still in favor of waiting until it's over though. Benpiano800 (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with waiting but non retired hurricane names can still be the primary topic, such is the case with Hurricane Gordon Trooncel (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Hurricane Idalia last year did not need 2023 in the article name because it was notable enough to not have 2023 in the article name ,and Idalia was never retired 2601:8C:8200:1700:D97B:956A:8167:E612 (talk) 13:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Im sure even if Hurricane Idalia hadnt impacted land the way it did, it still wouldnt have its year in the title bc its the only Idalia, lol. 🍙🌀CycloneIns✉ 14:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Okay it's category 5 now, I've changed by stance to Support Benpiano800 (talk) 14:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait per ChessEric. ~ HikingHurricane _(contribs) 21:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait until the end of the season, unless it becomes a Category 5 in which case it's guaranteed to be retired. --Zerbey (talk) 21:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

That is not how retirement works. Hurricane Lee (2023) was a category 5 and wasn't retired and was not declared to be the primary topic after an RM. Meanwhile, Tropical Storm Allison is the primary topic despite being a tropical storm because of the flooding it caused in Texas and Louisiana. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Becoming a Category 5 would not guarantee its retirement, nor does it need to be retired to drop the year. That's also only a few MPH away from where it is now, so crossing the threshold from 4 to 5 would not meaningfully change anything. Waiting until the end of the season also seems very arbitrary - why wait until the last storm dissipates to assess this one? Maybe I'm just out of the loop because I haven't been active in WP:TC in a while, but I'm very surprised by how many !votes are not at all in line with how we usually do things. The only requirement is that it is the most notable Hurricane Beryl. Retirement is irrelevant.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The two that requested waiting until retirement might just be passersby. One issue that came up during Lee's was that, iirc, while it certainly might be the most notable Lee, it was not standout enough to earn to lose the disambiguation. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with Lee 23's year remaining. It is without a doubt the strongest Lee, but strongest doesn't always equal most notable. 2011's Lee was deadlier and caused far more damage, so I think it's fair to say neither are indisputably the most notable Hurricane Lee.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

You could make a case that, since Beryl did $100 million in damages, this one did not do enough damage. Personally, I disagree with that especially since we have enough clairvoyance that it will at least hit the Yucatan Peninsula and probably graze Jamaica. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I think this article upped it to a billion last I checked. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Zerbey, there have been category 5 hurricanes that haven’t been retired; such as Lee (2023) or Lorenzo (2019). West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Saying that it will be retired, no matter how impactful it is, is only speculating. Just saying. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I apologize if I rubbed that in. I posted that comment before I read the entire thread, and erroneously thought that no one had already commented on that matter. I guess I need to learn to read all of the replies before replying (which is something I didn’t do.) West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I concede the point, and now Beryl is a Cat5 I still think we should wait until we know how it will impact Jamaica. --Zerbey (talk) 12:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Weak support/wait Yes it's a big storm but we should wait to see what the damage is. One source I saw said it's going to die before it makes landfall in a major area. LuxembourgLover (talk) 21:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@LuxembourgLover: What source is that? The NOAA currently predicts that it will likely hit Jamaica as a hurricane or possibly major hurricane. There are almost 3 million people in Jamaica. Nosferattus (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Right now the island is only on a hurricane watch, if it reaches a hurricane warning then that may change. I still think we should wait, it may miss Jamacia and die over the Yucatán Peninsula. source LuxembourgLover (talk) 21:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't call striking the Yucatán Peninsula at hurricane strength and then weakening into a tropical storm as it crosses into the Gulf of Mexico "dying", but I'll grant you that this is still just a forecast.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@LuxembourgLover: Beryl is now a Category 5 barreling straight towards Jamaica. It is expected to hit Jamaica tomorrow as a major hurricane and then hit the Yucatan Peninsula as a regular hurricane on Friday. It has been extensively covered in the media and will be causing a lot more destruction this week. Nosferattus (talk) 16:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: As stated before I think we should wait. Now that we waited I think we could change it. LuxembourgLover (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, by this point, Beryl has mostly pulled out of the Lesser Antilles so we should be getting some preliminary tallies within the next day. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:30, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: I think if it is necessary МОДОКАУ 21:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait - It may be WP:TOOSOON to make such a big decision. We should wait for more reports about the damage and death toll. Poxy4 (talk) 00:36, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Retracting my earlier statement to say Support due to it's estimated 1 billion in damages. Considering this number is likely to get bigger and this is very unlikely to be it's only landfall, it's probably the primary topic. --zoey (trooncel) 00:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: Beryl has broken countless records. Having become the strongest June hurricane on record, the easternmost June hurricane on record, the first major hurricane in June outside of the Gulf of Mexico, the strongest landfall on record for this early in the season, and now the potential of it going Category 5? This has eclipsed Beryl 2018 by an immense margin of memorability and then-some. Regardless of retirement, I see absolutely no reason why this Beryl wouldn't become a primary topic. I think sure we can wait a little longer, but this Beryl is already immensely historical. VantaWiki (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support: Adding onto my initial support, Beryl is now officially a Category 5 hurricane...the earliest on record. VantaWiki (talk) 03:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: Now that it is the earliest Category 5 storm on record (in the Atlantic at least (CNN), I do support the move pre-empting further impacts, as it will certainly be the most notable Atlantic hurricane named Beryl for the next seven years, if not longer. SpacePod9 (talk) 03:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: per others Nicky571 (talk) 03:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per others. Procyon117 (talk) 04:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait as per other writers. Once the impacts are clear, then I may be inclined to change my vote. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 04:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: while somewhat unrelated, I think this storm should be nominated for ITN. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Still think we should wait a day or two on moving. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It already has. The current consensus is moving towards Wait. _ZZ^Z'S 07:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Recent replies that I have seen is a growing support. I still think we need to hold off on moving the article at least until the storm hits Jamaica (at a bare minimum, I wouldn’t be opposed to waiting until Baryl has completely dissipated, but that’s just me.) West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 07:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I am referring to the ITN candidate _ZZ^Z'S 07:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

If someone can put a link to the ITN nomination on my talk page (or here if you want to), that would be great. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

One is posted at the top of this talk page. Drdpw (talk) 17:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Good. Just took a look at (and put my two cents into) that nomination. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Changing vote to weak support given forecasts of a basically direct hit on Jamaica as a cat 3 (even if the eye stays a few miles offshore.), while I still have some reservations about moving the article this early, I think the likelihood of the name being retired (based on the presumed impacts in Grenada and Saint Vincent.) are extremely high. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 14:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The fact that the storm is now the earliest category 5 on record is also a factor in my decision. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 14:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Changing further to strong support, now that we’ve waited. It is becoming increasingly clear that this year’s Beryl is the one you’re gonna think of when you think of Beryl as a tropical cyclone name. It is expected to be a direct hit or a nearly direct hit on Jamaica as a strong category 3 hurricane; and a category 1 hurricane in the Yucatán Peninsula. Now that we’ve waited, this storm has broke multiple records, shattered records even. There is as other editors have pointed out, widespread media attention on this. Multiple deaths. Millions if not billions of dollars in damage. This is definitely WP:LASTING right there; and definitely notable enough to strongly consider this move. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Not that WP:LASTING is necessarily a criteria for moving. I just thought I’d throw that in there in case someone who didn’t know any better tried to AfD it. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:06, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Just figured out the actual relevant policy. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

And the death toll as of the article’s writing is up to seven and counting. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support This storm has gotten heavy media attention, and has broken multiple records while doing devastating damage to the Windward Islands. The chance for extra devastation is very likely, as it will pass by Jamaica and then landfall in Yucatan. Furthermore, it is far more notable than the 2018 system. 🍙🌀CycloneIns✉ 05:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support as this is currently now a catastrophic category 5 Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 07:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support It's an historic hurricane that overshadows other storms with the same name. Killuminator (talk) 08:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support Berly broke many records, and it will pass WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. HurricaneEdgar 10:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

It’s Beryl. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per Drdpw Shmego (talk) 12:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support Even if Beryl blipped out of existence, it's already caused three deaths, became the earliest Category 5 hurricane in the Atlantic basin, and has caused at least $1 billion in damage. OhHaiMark (talk) 12:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support - Hurricane has widespread media attention, has broken many records for how early it has arrived and it's strength, and already decimated multiple islands. It is clearly the first Hurricane that comes to mind when someone says Beyl now. Beast01998 (talk) 16:17, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support. At the time of writing, this incarnation of Beryl has outstripped all others in terms of death toll, damage totals, and meteorological significance. I think it's safe to say that this satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC even accounting for recency bias. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support - Hurricane Beryl is an extremely notable Atlantic Hurricane compared to other storms of the same name. Quake1234 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Now that it seems a consensus has been reached, that being support for the move, is this ready to be pursued? Nicky571 (talk) 17:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Ready - Looks like just about everyone is on the same page, we've got a large wall of supports and many wait !votes have struck and switched to support.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support – This storm has broken several records already (strongest June/July hurricane by wind speed, earliest C4/C5 beating 2005s records, farthest east major hurricane and hurricane in tropical Atlantic, etc.), has caused major impacts in Grenada and the Windward Islands already, and is being forecast to likely cause more in Jamaica and Mexico. I definitely believe this is the primary topic for these reasons and that the page should be moved to the title without the year. ChrisWx 🌀 (talk - contribs) 18:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Pinging those who said to wait. @GeorgeMemulous, Hansen Sebastian, ChessEric, Benpiano800, HikingHurricane, Zerbey, and Poxy4: Now that Beryl is a Category 5 and about to hit Jamaica, do you still favor waiting? Nosferattus (talk) 20:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  I Support now. This is probably enough to warrant being THE "Hurricane Beryl" article. Benpiano800 (talk) 20:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

A TC's strength has little to do with its notability, it's all about impacts, but I do think Beryl has received enough media coverage for it to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Changing my decision to support. ~ HikingHurricane _(contribs) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In agreeance with with the other commenters here. Beryl is definitely notable to be PT now. Poxy4 (talk) 20:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Support This storm is definitely the main one out of all the storms named Beryl and will more than likely be retired. I've slashed my previous "wait" answer; I support this now.

Note: Be careful about pinging people like this because its considered canvassing. ChessEric 21:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I know I wasn’t the one who pinged everyone but you just taught me something. I wouldn’t have known the policy on canvassing. Or what constitutes canvassing. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 02:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In defense of the user who pinged the remaining wait !voters, I don't think this constitutes canvassing as all of the users who were pinged had already !voted in this discussion & the notification sent was just asking to check in with them and to see if they still favor waiting. Seems like an appropriate notification.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 09:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say wait until after we know what the impacts on Jamaica are, but I suspect at this point it's inevitable it will be retired. Zerbey (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

You typically aren’t supposed to post a vote multiple times on a talk page unless you are changing your vote. And even then, you should cross out the original vote. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support. Meets the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria and a highly notable record-breaker. not to mention that this year's iteration of Beryl is obviously the most notorious Hurricane Beryl to have ever existed. Vida0007 (talk) 02:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support. This year's Beryl has beaten several records and has already caused tons of damage in the Lower Antilles and will only cause more in Jamaica. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies here. Realsaltyguy (talk) 03:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait. Likely, this iteration of Beryl will be retired, given its strength and impact in the Carribean. But that is not up to us to decide. Best to wait if/when that happens. Otherwise, for now, it is the latest among the storms named Beryl. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@KyuuA4: As others have already explained above, dropping the year from a hurricane article is common practice, regardless if the name is retired or not. That's the reason why Hurricane Beryl (2018) was previously located at Hurricane Beryl, since it was considered the primary topic at the time. CycloneYoris ^talk! 10:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

There has only been one other Hurricane Beryl that did about $100 million and no deaths, this one likely did over $1 billion and did several people in. That's not even accounting for the records that this Beryl has set. It is fallacious to think that we will need till March to see if it is appropriate to dedisambiguate™. ✶Quxyz✶ 14:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I heavily oppose waiting until March to take off the year. That would be waiting the better part of eight or nine months. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong support for the reasons listed above -- no other Beryl has been remotely as impactful or strong as this one, and this is the primary topic for this name and will almost certainly continue to be in perpetutity. Jokullmusic 14:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support No Beryl has been as strong, notable, and covered by news/etc that this storm, so this qualifies under WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Iovecodeabc~ talk | contribs 16:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong speedy support. As far as I know, only one other Beryl is called a hurricane, and this one is clearly more important than that one. There should be no need to wait a full 7 days to reach that conclusion, and the event is a matter of some urgency. This hurricane has surpassed several records. I am tempted to snowball close this myself, but my change of the Hurricane Beryl redirect was reverted, so I will refrain from doing so. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I am agreeing more and more with you. Speedy support as noted above in my vote. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 16:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In concur (I !voted above); a speedy close and move to Hurricane Beryl would seem to be in order. Drdpw (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The person who reverted my conversion of the redirect to a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT now supports the move, so the reason for my reluctance to close this myself is now gone, but I will wait some hours before doing that, to try to avoid the potential accusation of closure by an involved editor. Anyone else is hereby invited to close this or to object before closure occurs. Nearly all of the recent comments seem supportive of a speedy affirmative conclusion here. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong speedy support as per above, additionally every other storm named Beryl was only a tropical storm except for the 2018 one, which was a fairly unimportant minimal hurricane. Sria-72 (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I would close it but I don’t know how. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I’ve posted a message on @Hurricanehink’s talk page about it. He probably knows how. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

And apparently Hurricane Beryl already redirects here. Just FYI. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

See WP:RMCI as a primer. ArkHyena (talk) 17:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I’ll defer to someone else because I did vote on this and some “wikilawyer” might consider me involved. But I’ll continue reading so that I can figure out the template. Still see a clear consensus on moving, so it’s only a matter of time. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Strongest June hurricane (by pressure)?

It is undoubtably clear that it’s the strongest June hurricane by wind speed since it attained Category 4 intensity on June 30. But since it reached a pressure lower than the previous most intense June hurricanes on July 1, does that mean it was a “July hurricane” when it reached this pressure. 38.53.173.101 (talk) 23:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't change it for that reason. ✶Quxyz✶ 23:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Audrey 1957 remains the strongest/most-intense June Atlantic hurricane on record as measured by barometric pressure. Drdpw (talk) 23:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If I'm reading this correctly, Hurricane Audrey was 946 mbar. This article now says 934 mbar for Beryl, but perhaps it was July when that reading was measured? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Furthest east hurricane in the tropical atlantic.

The current record states that Beryl was the "easternmost Atlantic hurricane to form in June". However, this is wrong as Chris 2012 became a hurricane further east at 43.2W. Therefore, to fix this, the record should state that Beryl was the furthest east in the TROPICAL Atlantic. Tryhard Angels (talk) 03:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing that out. Please, feel free to make constructive edits anytime. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 03:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I would but dont yet meet the criteria to edit semi-protected articles. Tryhard Angels (talk) 03:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Climate change connection

Several sources are claiming that Beryl's intensity is connected to climate change, would it be worth it to mention? ✶Quxyz✶ 16:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

These days, the media loves to go on about climate change after any significant weather event. The exact influence of climate change on Beryl is not something that is going to be established in a matter of days - that will require months of modelling and analysing the environmental conditions that Beryl has experienced up to this point, so as to separate natural trends from anthropogenic influence. Generic commentary about how higher water temperatures result in higher intensities or quicker intensification should be covered in Tropical cyclones and climate change; commentary about this season's abnormally high sea surface temperatures should be in 2024 Atlantic hurricane season#Seasonal summary and even that will be difficult to evaluate until after the season. Hurricane Harvey#Climate change is a good example of what a climate change-related section should look like in a specific tropical cyclone's article. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 17:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In summary: no, not yet, especially if there's nothing actually specific. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 17:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Possibly. But I’d say it might be a little too early to to that. Are there any reputable sources saying this? And if so, who? West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 17:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Quxyz: Yes, if reliable sources are reporting that, then so should we. What are the sources? Nosferattus (talk) 17:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Id have to go throw a few sources to find exact webpages but I remember that at least CNN reported on it. ✶Quxyz✶ 17:27, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Here are three sources that talk about the record warm temperatures at least: [1][2][3]. ✶Quxyz✶ 17:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

None of those three sources make a direct link between CC and Beryl. France24 has one sentence on the increased frequency of extreme weather events, and the Guardian only has generic statements on increasing tropical cyclone intensity. AP at least mentions three factors contributing to the record Atlantic SSTs (La Nina, negative NAO, CC-induced slowing AMOC) but I'm of the opinion detailed commentary on the record SSTs should go in the season article instead. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 17:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Any connection to climate change should be mentioned in the meteorological history, such as the warm water temperatures. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:20, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Anything else would be speculation and conjecture. Drdpw (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think a separate CC section is needed, since that's just part of the met history. Can we get a discussion on whether this section is even necessary? The fact that the waters were warm is more of a factor of the season, not this individual storm, so some of that content might be inappropriate for this article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't know why record SSTs aren't in the season article. I am on the fence on climate change being added, however, enough news stations mentioned it where I might as well ask. ✶Quxyz✶ 17:57, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I have no opinion on whether it's a separate section or not. I just wasn't sure where to put it. Since the current coverage is linking the warm waters specifically to Beryl's unprecedented development (rather than the hurricane season, which hasn't really developed yet), it seems like it makes sense to have it in this article. Although I imagine people will be talking more about the hurricane season in general once it is later in the year. Nosferattus (talk) 18:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

In recent years, it's become a bit of a cottage industry for news sources to link storms with climate change. That doesn't mean it is or it isn't happening, but climate is about long-term averages, not individual events like this. That's why it's important to document the various factors at play, and include them where appropriate. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

True, but this specific storm seems to be focusing some attention on the issue. For example, the Prime Minister of St Vincent and the Grenadines apparently was chewing out Europe and the US for not meeting climate goals as Hurricane Beryl was smashing through SVG.[4] That's not something that happens with every storm. Nosferattus (talk) 18:09, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Interesting! I'd consider that "aftermath", since there's a political element to the storm that has exasperated the effects, namely the inability to get anything done on climate change. These leaders of island nations are rightly frustrated. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:16, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Do we want to scoot some of the CC stuff into a new aftermath section or is it too early? ✶Quxyz✶ 18:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Definitely not too early for an aftermath section. In the coming days, we'll be getting reports out of the islands how they plan to rebuild and restore everything. A political leader's first statement would be a great start to the section. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Well now the content has been deleted entirely, due to it being "speculative". Regardless of it being speculative or not, it is being discussed by the media (and scientists and politicians) and it seems like the discussion is significant enough to warrant inclusion per WP:WEIGHT. Nosferattus (talk) 18:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources discussing climate change link

Putting these here for reference...

• Forbes - Several paragraphs of discussion. Includes quote from climate scientist Michael Mann specifically discussing climate change connection to Hurricane Beryl's development.
• Salon - Entire article is about link to climate change. Includes quotes from several scientists.
• AP News - Two paragraphs and an audio interview discuss the link to climate change.
• NPR - Audio interview about link to climate change.
• Washington Post - Four paragraphs discussing the link to climate change.
• The Guardian - Article about the Prime Minister of St Vincent and the Grenadines complaints about climate inaction in the wake of Hurricane Beryl.
• Mother Jones - Another article about the statements by the Prime Minister of St Vincent and the Grenadines.
• France 24 - One sentence about link to climate change.
• Axios - Several sentences interspersed in article, although only one specifically links climate change to Beryl specifically (rather than to the season). Includes a quote from a climate scientist.
• NPR - One paragraph about link to climate change.
• Reuters - Section about link to climate change.
• Haaretz - Two sentences about climate change link.
• CNN - Small section on link to climate change. Includes quote from climate scientist.

Nosferattus (talk) 20:26, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Time - Entire article is about link to climate change. Includes quotes from a climate scientist. Nosferattus (talk) 02:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Should we mention the media's discussion of climate change in the article?

Put your opinion here.

• Yes - There's significant discussion of this in reliable sources, including coverage entirely devoted to this specific topic, so per WP:WEIGHT it should be mentioned. Nosferattus (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Maybe, Conditions of the Atlantic should be mentioned though. Already in article. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support I think it goes without saying that Hurricane Beryl is an unprecedented storm of the likes that we have never seen before. If you can reliable sources for this topic, I'm all for it. ChessEric 21:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
• Leaning no on specifically covering the media discussion of climate change and Beryl, but yes to covering the facts about unseasonably and persistently very warm sea surface temperatures in the Main Development Region being conducive to early rapidly intensifying tropical development as occurred with Beryl. Drdpw (talk) 22:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  • Neutral to leaning no - don’t really care what you all do when it comes to mentioning climate change. But I lean ever so slightly against it just based on the fact that climate change is a months and years long process.

  West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Using WXFatalities on Twitter/X as a source

I don't think that fatalities should be sourced from the account's post itself, as that could be considered a self published source since the information is being cited off of the owner's own work, but rather they should be cited using the sources that the account got the information from and directly posted here. It would be more helpful to directly cite the information from the source it's gotten from and easily verify that it caused that many fatalities, rather than link to an editor's own account just giving the information without providing the sources it came from. Pinging @WeatherWriter: as he owns the account. ChrisWx 🌀 (talk - contribs) 18:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree there. A post on X from one of the Wikipedia editors would 110% constitute a self published source. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding Grenada to Areas Affected

Hurricane Beryl made direct landfall on Grenada, so its should be included in the areas affected. The hurricane also caused some significant damage too. Maybe the hurricane's effects on Grenada should be discussed more in this article too. I would also include how the hurricane also had effects on other areas in the Caribbean, although the hurricane may not have made direct landfall on them, like the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao). CavDan24 (talk) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

If you provide sources, we can add some of the suggestions for you. ✶Quxyz✶ 21:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

They won't because it didn't. Caracou is an island about 50miles north of Grenada (in the Grenadines), where it made landfall (although the term "landfall" is dubious when the storm is much larger than the island. 82.69.48.215 (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Caracou was in the direct path of Hurricane Beryl and got hit. That island is part of Grenada, so therefore, it impacted Grenada.. CavDan24 (talk) 03:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Never mind. I see that the Windward Islands is included in the areas affected, and those group of islands include Caracou. CavDan24 (talk) 03:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This is sorta moot as Grenada is a member of the Windward islands, which is already listed in the infobox. ✶Quxyz✶ 14:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is the article already being treated like Beryl hit it's peak?

Sorry, it's been a while since i've contributed to wikipedia so I've come here to ask, but why is Beryl's article being treated like it's post tropical/dissipated? Unless something has changed, I do not recall the standard for these articles having a still image at peak intensity with the infobox having it's peak intensity instead of current intensity, while the storm is very much active and tropical. Is this an error of some kind or am I not up to date on how the tropical cyclone wikiproject is being ran now? --zoey (trooncel) 22:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Im not sure either, first time Ive seen it like this. 🍙🌀CycloneIns✉ 23:39, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@Trooncel and CycloneIns: Due to a recent Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents discussion and a recent template deletion discussion, there is consensus that the infobox should not be actively be updated anymore with links to the NHC because Wikipedia is not a news site and it is not a good idea to keep it that way to give people the false notion that it is a site to get the most recent information on tropical cyclones, so we are no longer actively updating the information on tropical cyclones, are keeping the infobox to read the peak strength, and just updating the information on the tropical cyclone preparations and impacts as that information comes out now. ChrisWx 🌀 (talk - contribs) 00:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

175mph?

Supposedly, an early-morning recon mission found sustained 1-minute recorded winds of 175mph, but the only sources I could find for this are WxAtom's post on X and Force Thirteen's video on YouTube before it was set to strike Jamaica. From what I can tell, this was reported by recon flights early on the second between advisories, and is receiving minimal coverage, but if anyone could find a better source and confirm this, I'd like to have this added to the article (I personally believe that Force Thirteen and WxAtom are reliable secondary sources, but for an exceptional claim like this I'd want a more widespread source such as AP or NBC, or for confirmation from the NHC). GeorgeMemulous (talk) 22:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Your information is inaccurate, and, Force Thirteen not considered reliable secondary sources by Wikipedia, I do not know about WxAtom. Drdpw (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I was able to track the recon mission to Tropical Tidbits which gets its data directly from NOAA's National Hurricane Center, meaning I am confident this information is accurate; I'm just looking for an archive of the specific recon flight shown in WxAtom's tweet (NOAA3-0802A-BERYL at around 09:40Z June 2). It doesn't help that the site only features recent flights and only has flight level observations in image instead of plaintext and ground-level. If anyone can help find a reliable source for ground-level wind estimates from this specific flight, it would be appreciated. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 23:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

@GeorgeMemulous: It is solely up to the NHC, not us, to draw that conclusion from the data in question.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I understand the policy issues at play here. Either way, I am unable to find a reliable source outside of the graphic which was relayed via X; even though it's almost certainly official and accurate, the NHC has not issued a statement confirming, denying, or acknowledging this sounding. The most likely case is that this specific recon flight will be confirmed much later on, after the system has dissipated, in some post-event summary or literature. It also may just be a 10-second maximum sustained gust, as opposed to 1-minute, but again, we'll have to wait until after this storm concludes. Until then, it's best not to add the 175mph winds until confirmed by the NHC or other contextually reliable sources. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 01:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Normally we only use a max intensity assigned by the NHC, which would be 165 mph in this case. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm referring to post-event literature and analysis; Hurricane Ian and Hurricane Andrew were both recategorized as Category 5 after they dissipated and if it could happen with categories I don't doubt it could happen for maximum windspeed. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 17:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Satellite loop

Passing off that satellite loop as "current" satellite imagery is disingenuous with it going out of date minutes after it gets uploaded. Providing it is contrary to WP:NOTNEWS because it aims to provide the user with the absolute "latest" look of the storm, and is contrary to project infobox image guidelines dictating peak intensity representative imagery. @MarioProtIV: Your attempt to discredit this rationale as "SYNTH" is ridiculous. Jasper Deng (talk) 23:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Barbados death

The source cited for the death in Barbados does not say that there has been a death in Barbados. The video attached says, "Off the coasts of Saint Vincent, rough seas sunk one boat slammed another into a rocky shore. The country's prime minister says at least one person has been killed." This clearly says that the prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Ralph Gonsalves (who also appears on screen), confirms one death in the Saint Vincent, not Barbados. The only place that indicates a Barbados death is in the title, and the video does not support the claim. RandomInfinity17 (talk - contributions) 23:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the Barbadian death as your evidence checks out and I could not find another source to back up the claim. ✶Quxyz✶ 01:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hurricane record

Can this be included as a record? OhHaiMark (talk) 02:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That's moreso a record for the drone manufacturer. Recon planes regularly find stronger winds in this thing multiple times daily. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 02:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

No record involved here. I do not see any mention of the earlier first-ever encounter with Hurricane Sam in that article either. That encounter is mentioned at Unmanned surface vehicle#Saildrone. Perhaps something could be added there about the Beryl-saildrone encounter. Drdpw (talk) 02:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok. OhHaiMark (talk) 02:53, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Add info on how unexpected it was

Beryl was not originally expected to become a category 5, as its first forecast only had it reaching a peak intensity of category 2 strength. Note that in the article please. 24.115.255.37 (talk) 03:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

This is not unexpected. Since Hurricane Rick (2009), in the NHC AOR, only Hurricane Otis had an explicit forecast for Category 5 intensity that turned out to be right. --Jasper Deng (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

ok 24.115.255.37 (talk) 03:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Jasper Deng, can you please clarify your comment? ✶Quxyz✶ 14:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Otis didn’t even have an explicit category 5 forecast until it was already like a category 3 or 4. At one point, it wasn’t even expected to be a hurricane at all, it was just supposed to be a 40-50 mph tropical storm. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Plus, both of those storms you mentioned were Pacific storms. When was the last Atlantic storm that had such a forecast? West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

That's pretty normal. The first forecast for Hurricane Ian predicted a peak of Cat 2 (it became a C5). Lorenzo 19 was predicted to peak as a C3 five days out. The five-day forecast for Dorian had a TS, not a Cat 5. The first advisory for Michael 2018 forecast a tropical storm. Category 5 storms are usually unexpected, and the NHC often doesn't forecast them explicitly since there is usually a rapid deepening event, and that might be hard to predict. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)