Talk:Brighton hotel bombing

Name

The common name for the event in virtually every source available is the Brighton bomb. Why, Elli, did hou ignore WP:COMMONNAME when you reverted my page move? - SchroCat (talk) 02:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat someone requested to revert the move. I don't have any opinion on the underlying dispute and suggest you open an RM. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Elli, So you just did it without looking or considering? Did you do any checking first? - SchroCat (talk) 02:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat: again, I did not do this with an opinion on the underlying dispute. Harrz is the one who requested the revert, so I would suggest discussing this with them, ideally as an RM. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, no checking, no thought. I get it. - SchroCat (talk) 02:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 June 2024

Brighton hotel bombing → Brighton bomb – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Sources overwhelmingly use the name ‘the Brighton bomb’ to deal with this event. While there is some use of ‘Brighton hotel bombing’, these are much less common. Support the move, of course. - SchroCat (talk) 02:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. No they don't. They often call it the Brighton bombing, but not the Brighton bomb. The current title is fine. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:21, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes they do, actually. While some sources call it the Brighton hotel bombing (as I’ve already said), the weight of sources is ‘Brighton bomb’. As I'm rewriting the article at the moment, I’m quite familiar with the sources. If you really don't believe me:

• "Brighton Hotel bombing" gives 78 hits
• "brighton bomb" gives "About 22,600 results"

It's clear on book refs too:

• "brighton hotel bombing" for Google books: About 1,740 results
• "Brighton hotel bombing" on Internet archive books: 261 Results
• "Brighton bomb" for Google books: About 4,320 results
• "Brighton bomb" on Internet archive books: 1,633 Results

COMMONNAME really is quite clear... - SchroCat (talk) 12:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - regardless of whether 'Brighton bomb' is the common name or not, a common name isn't the only criteria to decide on a title. Per WP:CRITERIA, a good title has five characteristics:

1. Recognisability - 'Brighton hotel bombing' is definitely more recognisable and easy to understand than simply 'Brighton bomb', which is quite ambiguous.
2. Naturalness - It is more common for titles about bombings to be titled as such, rather than just 'bomb' which sounds awfully unnatural.
3. Precision - As said before, there is no ambiguity about 'Brighton hotel bombing', however there is for just 'Brighton bomb'.
4. Concision - 'Brighton bomb' is too short to adequately identify the subject.
5. Consistency - 'Brighton hotel bombing' is more consistent with other articles than 'Brighton bomb' - see WP:NCE.

In conclusion, 'Brighton bomb' is just an unnatural name and there is no need to alter the current title. harrz ^talk 20:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

1. Recognisability: being the common name by a long stretch, it's much more recognisable by default. There is nothing ambiguous about "Brighton bomb", which is why so many sources use it.
2. Naturalness - Given so many sources use "Brighton bomb", it sounds more natural to me - "Brighton hotel bombing" sounds unnatural and forced to me. This point is down to personal choice, so it's a bit of De gustibus and all that
3. Precision: The title "Brighton bomb" is precise enough, without the unnecessary clutter of the superfluous noun
4. Concision - "Brighton bomb" is much more concise and is obviously sufficient to identify the topic, particularly given most sources use it as the COMMONNAME without any problems
5. Consistency - There’s no consistency in the naming approach at the moment. Category:Hotel bombings in Europe, for example, shows no common pattern that would support ‘Brighton Hotel bombing’.

In conclusion, 'Brighton bomb' is just a natural name, one used by the great weight of sources, making it the superior title and, of course, it's still the WP:COMMONNAME and aligns with WP:NCWWW (and WP:NOYEAR). - SchroCat (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at Category:Provisional IRA bombings in England which clearly shows the pattern for consistency. harrz ^talk 07:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid that even cherry picking categories doesn't show consistency, given the differing formats in this cat. Looking through the naming of events covered in the category Category:Terrorist incidents in the United Kingdom in the 1980s, again there is no consistency (Harrods bombing, Iranian Embassy siege, Altnaveigh landmine attack, Darkley killings, 1985 Newry mortar attack, Remembrance Day bombing, etc all show a wide range of formats). So of the five criteria, "Brighton bomb" is still ahead in all areas. Given there's no consistency, and given the lack of grounds on the other criteria, COMMONNAME is a particularly strong and relevant guideline. - SchroCat (talk) 07:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support: I've had a good rummage in the online archives and it is clear to me that "the Brighton bomb" has been the usual way of referring to the atrocity. The term "Brighton hotel bombing" is much less to be found in newspaper reports at the time and since. I can imagine that as we get further and further away from the event the term "the Brighton hotel bombing" may in due course become more usual than "the Brighton bomb", but in this year of grace 2024 the latter is, I'm sure, the norm. I concur with SchroCat, above. Tim riley talk 21:09, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support: The sources generally use "Brighton bomb" to refer to the event, and so should we. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support - per WP:COMMONNAME as it is more common in the sources. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support per ngrams. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:49, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support An examination of articles and works on the subject supports the WP:COMMONNAME argument. ~ HAL333 23:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose the article is about the event, not the explosive. But there is a reasonable argument that "Brighton bomb" is a set-phrase that should be in the title of the article about this event. What about "IRA Brighton bomb attack"? Walsh90210 (talk) 20:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  As opposed to who else’s bomb? And what else is a bomb but an attack? "IRA Brighton bomb attack" isn’t a name used by anyone (possibly a description, but not a title). Two of the six documentaries are actually called “The Brighton Bomb”. - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose move to simply "...bomb". A perusal of Category:Provisional IRA bombings in London and similar categories shows the consistent title format would be "...bombing", so would support a move to Brighton bombing, which is equally common as "Brighton bomb". The guidance at WP:CRITERIA specifically states "The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles", the vast majority of articles on IRA bombings use "...bombing" not "...bomb". Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  Category:Terrorist incidents in the United Kingdom in the 1980s, shows no consistency (Harrods bombing, Iranian Embassy siege, Altnaveigh landmine attack, Darkley killings, 1985 Newry mortar attack, Remembrance Day bombing). CRITERIA has several criteria (discussed above), and while both bomb and bombing fit all the criteria, Brighton Bomb is one more commonly used in the reliable sources. - SchroCat (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

  Given that that Iranian Embassy siege was a hostage taking by gunmen, and the Darkley killings was a gun attack, it's hardly surprising that neither of the articles you are using as examples of supposed inconsistency in naming actually ends with "...bombing", since neither of them were bombings! Kathleen's bike (talk) 21:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There is a rough consensus that "Brighton bomb" is the common name, but editors are concerned by WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Relisting to get additional input, as well as to consider the alternative title "Brighton bombing". BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Bombing is a more natural title and omitting the hotel part also works against the proposal. Killuminator (talk) 13:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support the move to "Brighton Bomb", as per the sources, COMMONNAME, and WP:CRITERIA. Cassianto^Talk 18:27, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Brighton bomb" is just too vague and non-specific; "Brighton hotel bombing" carries exponentially more meaning, one immediately knows the event that is being referred to (rather than some other bomb in Brighton, historical ordnance found on the beach say, or maybe a local drag act?). Even if the reader is unfamiliar with the event, the title conveys that there was an explosion which the other does not. There is no gain only loss in changing the title, keep "Brighton hotel bombing". Cheers! Captainllama (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
  • "Vague and non-specific"? "Brighton bomb" is the flaming COMMONNAME for the specific event, referred to in countless reliable sources and used as the title of two of the six documentaries and as the sub-title of one of the books about it. "Local drag act"? What bloody nonsense, this vote shows zero grasp of the WP:CRITERIA or of the subject matter and the sources. - SchroCat (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
• Support – appears to be the overwhelming common name. Some of the opposition arguments could be better considered if there was a plausible alternative actually used by a substantial amount of reliable sources, but that doesn't seem to be the case. – Aza24 (talk) 19:57, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  Brighton bombing in a perfectly plausible alternative that has been prooposed, one that is equally as common as "Brighton bomb" and has the added benefit of being consistent with similar articles (Category:Provisional IRA bombings in London, Category:Provisional IRA bombings in England, Category:Provisional IRA bombings in continental Europe, Category:Provisional IRA bombings in Northern Ireland and Category:Provisional IRA bombings in Belfast do not contain a single article with a title that ends in "...bomb", generally speaking it is "...bombing"). Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  I would suggest that "Brighton bomb" is more common in the reliable sources than "Brighton bombing". There are five different criteria for naming, and consistency with other titles is just one of them, but 'bomb' is stronger everywhere else in the quality sources. It wouldn't be the worst title in the world (certainly better than the current one), but not as strong as 'bomb'. - SchroCat (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  If you look at WP:CRITERIA, "Brighton bomb" arguably only fits two of the criteria - recognisability and naturalness, which is due to the WP:COMMONNAME you keep referring to. Now, in my opinion, this really isn't a natural title, mainly because this article is about the event (bombing) rather than the device used to carry it out (bomb). There really is no issue with the current title, it is equally recognisable, more natural, consistent with other articles and perfectly concise and precise to avoid ambiguity which would likely relate to the Brighton Blitz article. harrz ^talk 21:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  See my comments above. The current name is poor, whichever way you look at it. - SchroCat (talk) 02:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

  You say that but can you give a good reason why the current name is poor? The only thing you've said in your comment above is that your proposed title is 'stronger' - something which is purely subjective and has no relevancy to Wikipedia's naming policy. harrz ^talk 15:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

  It's much less common, both in general, and in the quality sources - it's less common than both 'Brighton bomb' and 'Brighton bombing', for example. By virtue of being of limited use, it's less recognisable and much more grammatically forced. - SchroCat (talk) 16:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, but this feels like sticking with the rules to our own disadvantage. The "Brighton bomb" is the name of the event, not just the device: keeping the current title—"Brighton hotel bombing"—only because three conventions at AT would rather have it stretched out into an unnatural three words which arguably fits better with Wikipedia policy but is out of touch with reality and basic common sense is a poor argument. Titles must be "recogni[s]able, concise, natural, precise, and consistent": out of those five, I'd say all are fulfilled bar "consistent", but there is no consistency here as SchroCat has demonstrated. On another point: why "Brighton hotel bombing"? "Brighton Hotel bombing" or better "Grand Brighton Hotel bombing" would be an improvement (currently the lowercase "h" makes it sound like a generic hotel in Brighton). Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• To anyone who actually has an interest in the subject, there is now a pre-FAC peer review open for comments on the article. - SchroCat (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too easily confused with the Brighton Bombers (football team) and the Brighton bomber, who planted the bomb in the hotel. Also, Brighton was bombed on numerous occasions during the Brighton Blitz during WW2, so omitting the word "hotel" is imprecise. There are five criteria for an article title. However, using the most common name is not one of the naming criteria. While using a recognizable common name is a criterion, the title also needs to be precise and natural. The existing title meets these criteria. The proposed title is ambiguous and would suggest an article that is confined to just an explosive weapon called a "Brighton bomb", rather than the explosion of the IRA bomb in a Brighton hotel that killed people. Besides, the bomb itself is probably not really that notable, although the bombing is. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 14:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  See above: the current name does not fit the five criteria and is - at the very best - the third best suggestion in this thread. The proposed title is neither ambiguous (not only is it the COMMONNAME, it's used as or in book and documentary titles - with zero ambiguity). "Brighton bomb" (and less so, "Brighton bombing") is precise, common and much less clumsy and unnatural than the current version. - SchroCat (talk) 15:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  @SchroCat: When it comes to naming notable events, there is a separate event-specific naming convention which sets out how to name the article, by including descriptors that answer the When, Where and What ... happened? questions. A bomb is not a happening, it is a thing. However the bomb exploding is a happening and one synonym for that is that a bombing occurred. Grammatically, the title needs to use the gerund form of the word bomb to make grammatical sense because the word bomb can be used as both a verb and a noun, while bombing is clearly the gerund form of the verb to bomb because it ends with "... ing". Also, to be consistent with other events where a weapon is used, the gerund form should be used in the title. Thus we have titles ending in ... shooting or ... stabbing, not ... gun or ... knife. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support "Brighton bombing". ie the name most people then alive then and in the aftermath would be familiar with. I don't really like "Brighton bomb", which although some US sources use it, seems as if the article is about the device. Ceoil (talk) 21:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)