Talk:Barbara's Rhubarb Bar

Related discussion

Discussion about early stages of the page is at User talk:Tryptofish#Belly up!. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

More sources

Adding them here. Viriditas (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• "'Barbaras Rhabarberbar 2' – Bodo Wartke und Marti Fischer legen nach". Stern (magazine). May 18, 2024. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Baum, David (May 5, 2024). "Ein Hauch von Sommermärchen: Warum wir "Barbaras Rhabarberbar" dringend brauchten". Stern (magazine). Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Herbst, Gunnar (May 18, 2024). "Warum tanzen US-Stars ausgerechnet zu einem deutschen Zungenbrecher, Herr Wartke?". Stern (magazine).
• Skrobala, Jurek (June 5, 2024). "TikTok-Hype: »New York Times« amüsiert sich über deutschen Rhabarber-Song". Der Spiegel. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Skrobala, Jurek (June 7, 2024). "Rhabarberstar". Der Spiegel. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• "So tanzen zwei Nonnen zu „Barbaras Rhabarberbar"". Rheinische Post. May 26, 2024. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Szorek, Theresa (May 18, 2024). "So klingt der zweite Song von Barbaras Rharbarber-Bar". Rheinische Post. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Szorek, Theresa (April 26, 2024). "Warum die ganze Welt zu einem deutschen Zungenbrecher tanzt". Rheinische Post. Retrieved 2024-06-18.
• Wirsching, Daniel (May 27, 2024). "Der Tanz der Ordensshwestern". Augsburger Allgemeine. pp. 1, 9.

Thanks for this. I don't read German, so I'm going to wait and see what the DYK review brings up. (I've seen your discussion with a DYK admin, so I'm aware of it. It's also someone I've been having sharp words with lately, so I'm not sure how serious the concerns are.) I'm reluctant to put a bunch of non-English sources in a "Further reading" section without being able to tell the reader why this is worth reading further. And I would have to know what issues there may be with the current sources in order to start figuring out whether or not to add any of these as replacements. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

They are automatically translated into English in my browser. It might be helpful to set that up if you haven’t already. My point is that if you have any unreliable sources, they can easily be replaced with these. The second point that has not yet been addressed is the notability concern, which I think is easily countered. I will attempt to do so here tomorrow if you don’t get to it first. Viriditas (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I forgot to mention: the main points raised in the paywalled Wirsching 2024 article are viewable in the Rheinische Post article. That’s good news. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

As for the admin, I wouldn’t ascribe any bias to them. They do good work, and are equally critical. They also said they liked your hook, so that’s some praise, if you ask me. Don’t read anything into it. Their concern with notability is likely to reflect other opinions, so it’s always good to be proactive and address these things before the nominator gets to it. I understand, of course, that you may have a different approach. I think the easiest way to "solve" the notability issue is to reframe the entire article in his historical context instead of as a singular viral video. Some of the new sources up above mention that context. In other words, the larger topic has existed for years as a German tongue twister and only recently became a viral video and song. Reframe the article to make that clear. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

That reframing is a helpful idea. That's worth my thinking about, seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I've done some edits in that direction. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that barbarians would have bought cake, not pie, at Barbara's Rhubarb Bar?

• Source: "One thing we need to clear up: Contrary to the English translation on many videos of the song, including Wartke and Fischer’s official YouTube video, rhabarberkuchen is — repeat with me! — not rhubarb pie... Of all the elements of a proper rhabarberkuchen, the streusel topping seems most non-negotiable. Hansche remembers her mom making “rhabarber-streusel-kuchen” — a crumb cake with a layer of poached rhubarb and a streusel made from flour, butter, and sugar — as part of a “kaffe und kuchen” (coffee and cake) afternoon tradition." --Morgan, Audrey (May 8, 2024). "Why Is a Rap Song About Rhubarb Cake Blowing Up on TikTok?". Food & Wine. Same source, and multiple others cited on the page, document the "barbarians" in the song lyrics.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Victor Jacob Koningsberger.
• Comment: I also want to thank Viriditas and jc37, for giving me very valuable feedback about the page on my talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Moved to mainspace by Tryptofish (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 6 past nominations.

Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC).

• Article is new enough and long enough. It is presentable, well-sourced, neutral, and BLP-compliant. Earwig checks out. The hook is cited and interesting. Images used in the article have licenses. QPQ has been done. This is a fun article, excellent material for DYK. Well done. gobonobo ^{+ c} 16:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks so much! --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Dutch origin

The currently popular version of "Barbara's Rhubarb Bar" is a German music video. Everyone writes, as does this article, that it is a German tongue twister, and the press is looking for a German cultural background. However, I first heard the story of Barbara's Rhubarb Bar and the Barbarians from a Dutchman in 1978. In Dutch, the "r" is pronounced even harder than in German, which gives the story even more impact. I found Dutch forum posts about Rabarberbarbara from the year 2000 onwards [1] [2]. There is also a German news source (from Bayerischer Rundfunk; Google translation) that can be used for this article that points to a Dutch origin: a cartoon by Dutch cartoonist Evert Geradts from 1991. Unfortunately, they did not follow up on this Dutch lead. Instead, they cite similar tongue twisters from the ancient Romans, which were found on walls in Pompeii. Sitacuisses (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this information. I have added it to the page. I don't think we have sufficiently reliable sourcing to make a strong statement about the origin, but the Dutch cartoon is well-sourced. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the lead section needs to be updated as well. The Dutch version isn't the "also-ran", but rather the first modern version documented, at least to our current knowledge. It's a tounge twister not only in German, but in some Germanic languages, which achieved current fame through a German song. And it was somehow preceded by the Pompeiian graffito "barbara barbaribus barbabant barbara barbis" that has been documented since the 19th century (CIL IV 4235 8436). --Sitacuisses (talk) 21:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I want to also add, mostly for Tryptofish's benefit, that the Google translation on that article is terrible. Deutsche Welle is using a large portion of this cited article in their own work, and PressReader, my institutional library app, uses a more professional and elegant form of translation. Tryptofish may likely have access to this kind of seamless translation through their own institutions, whether it is academic or library. Viriditas (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, both of you. After looking into this, I've concluded that we have reliable sourcing for tongue twisters about barbarians dating back at least to Pompeii, and I've added that, citing a scholarly source. As for whether the rhubarb versions in later Germanic languages started in German or in Dutch, we have reliable sourcing for versions in both languages, but we would need stronger sourcing to assert that there were no German versions prior to the Dutch comic strip. To simply conclude that the Dutch comic is the earliest modern occurrence is WP:OR. The internet phenomenon that has made the topic notable for purposes of the English Wikipedia is centered on German versions, and that's where I believe the WP:DUE weight should remain for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)