Talk:Antisemitism

This Article Needs Review and Maybe Replacement

The text of this article contains deep subtexts of racism and political bias. It need to be reviewed immediately. The wording of this article could lead to very real crimes 2605:A601:AF6C:1700:A915:DB4F:28EA:266A (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you seriously expect anyone to take the slightest notice of such evidence-free assertions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I think most editors would need some examples. 99.152.118.240 (talk) 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Origins of Concept

"From the outset the term "anti-Semitism" bore special racial connotations and meant specifically prejudice against Jews."

I believe this is historically false, as outlined under the topic of AntiSemitism in The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, starting on p.341. The term was, by design, a racial/racist one, tied to a (now antiquated) concept of there being a Semitic race, characterized by certain physiognomic features. It was meant to label prejudice against people of that race, i.e. people with those features, among whom Jews were one subset, the one most general to Germany, so in practice in Germany it was almost exclusively Jews who were the targets, but the concept was very explicitly NOT intended to mean prejudice specifically against Jews. Part of the reason given for coining a new term was to distinguish discrimination and prejudice on a racial basis from those against Jews on a religious, political, or other bases.

"....there are many speakers of Semitic languages (e.g., Arabs, Ethiopians, and Arameans) who are not the objects of antisemitic prejudices..."

Thinking anyone is an object of antisemitism based on language is a stretch. Yes, ethnic hostility is often also considered "racism" insofar as ethnicity and race can be conflated, but again this is a term deliberately coined in reference to what was imagined to be biological qualities, so generally one only is an object of antisemitism to the extent that one's physique fits the (antiquated) model.

Even replacing "languages" in this sentence with something like "ethnic origins" or "physiognomy", to conform to the meaning of the term antisemitism, I think this sentence would also still be false. I think there ARE widespread racial/racist prejudices against Arabs, Palestinians, Arameans, etc, often based on physiognomy/appearance, in precisely the way that the term antisemitism was originally meant to convey, the antiquated nature of the Semitic Race as a biological or anthropological concept notwithstanding. Indeed, I think prejudice against "arabs" *on a racial basis* generally exceed and are more prevalent than those against Jews. Many Jews do not even look "Semitic". 2601:980:C000:2E30:8C2B:24EC:96B9:1C6B (talk) 20:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no semitic race, Semitic is simply a language family. There is no semitic race, that is a literal Nazi inspired myth. 74.71.4.108 (talk) 14:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

What do we call the race laws in Germany race laws for? 74.71.4.108 (talk) 14:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Because they're based on a Nazi inspired racial myth. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 15:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually it is a myth that the Nazis invented the concept of a "semitic race". Go to google books, search for "semitic race" (including quotes) then select "19th century" from the "Any time" pull-down. You will find many examples. It is even too simple to say that the Nazis adopted the concept, since they did not consider Jews and Arabs to be racially equal (though both were inferior). Note that the Nuremberg Laws specially say "Jews", not "Semites". Zero^talk 01:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, wasn't the Nazis. Predated them by a few decades. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 03:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The Nazis inherited a number of ideas from older political and scientific movements, such as their preoccupation with eugenics. Their ideological ancestors in the Völkisch movement "conceptualized a racialist and hierarchical definition of the peoples of the world where Aryans (or Germans) had to be at the summit of the white race. The purity of the bio-mystical and primordial nation theorized by the Völkisch thinkers then began to be seen as having been corrupted by foreign elements, Jewish in particular.". Dimadick (talk) 12:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Requesting Edit - Link to Etymological Fallacy

I've lost my previous Wikipedia account (or maybe it was on a different language, don't remember) and so I've created this account, but it is too new to edit this page.

Could someone please mention the Etymological fallacy page somewhere in the following paragraph (just before the first heading):

Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who incorrectly assert that it refers to racist hatred directed at "Semitic people" in spite of the fact that this grouping is an obsolete historical race concept.

I intended to write it as below, wouldn't stress on that exact wording though.

...those who incorrectly assert (as an etymological fallacy) that it refers to racist hatred...

Edit: this is even mentioned on Etymological fallacy itself.

RatherQueerDebator (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Done! Good edit. ꧁Zanahary꧂ (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! RatherQueerDebator (talk) 19:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

If semites include arabs, why is Wikipedia still defining it as discriminations towards only jews

If semites include arabs, why is Wikipedia still defining it as discriminations towards only jews. This is misinformation and is in line with the current propoganda war that is ongoing in 2023/2024 and even previous to this time.

Arabs feel the discrimination and racism towards them when it comes to the word antisemetic or antisemitism.

After reading the etymology of the word, it further supports the claim and provides further evidence that the defintion antisemtisim should be changed in wikipedia to the discrimination against any group of people of semitic descent. Abdlrdt (talk) 05:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Check out etymological fallacy for why breaking down a word's constituent parts to derive its true meaning is not a good strategy. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 06:26, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Thomas Carlyle's use of 'anti-semitic' (1850)

Thomas Carlyle uses the word in his 1850 'Life of Sterling':

It was not as a ghastly phantasm, choked in Thirty-nine-article controversies, or miserable Semitic, Anti-Semitic street-riots,—in scepticisms, agonized self-seekings, that this man appeared in life; nor as such, if the world still wishes to look at him should you suffer the world's memory of him now to be.

This English example long predates Wilhelm Marr's supposed coining of the term. Wouldn't this warrant a mention in the article under the discussion of the history of the word's usage? 206.85.204.137 (talk) 16:14, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting! Is this discussed in any secondary sources? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

There isn't much written about it that I can find, but the Oxford English Dictionary's entry confirms that Carlyle's is the first known example in English: "OED's earliest evidence for anti-Semitic is from 1851, in the writing of Thomas Carlyle, author, biographer, and historian."

From p. 42 of "The Rise and Fall of the Man of letters: Aspects of English Literary Life Since 1800--

"Curiously enough, in the Life of John Sterling (1851) he uses the actual word 'anti-semitic', which is generally supposed to have been coined in Germany some twenty years later."

Closer to thirty years later in fact. It is perhaps unsurprising that Carlyle, as a prominent translator of German literature and interpreter of German culture during the early Victorian age, was the man to coin this word (in English at least--perhaps in any language). He was well acquainted with the jargon of German philological research. Note that the context leaves no doubt that Jews are being referred to--he is addressing anti-Jewish riots that broke out in the aftermath of the 1848 revolutions. 206.85.204.137 (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Carlyle's intention for the word is unclear. What is "Semitic, Anti-Semitic" supposed to mean? As far as I can see (given how hard this book is to read) there is no other mention of riots in his book and no mention of the 1848 revolutions. Nor mention of Jews. Without support of a secondary source, using this example would be OR. However, at Talk:Antisemitism/Archive_35#Origin_of_the_term_and_etymology: I gave an 1854 newspaper usage which is extremely clear and I believe it can be cited: "Mr Disraeli cannot stand up in the Commons and accuse us of anti-semitic propensities and a desire to persecute his people." [Cambridge Independent Press, Feb 18, 1854, a commentary on an Act before Parliament]. Zero^talk 04:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)